Ep.305 w/ Chris McGill & Kristina Thorson of Card Ladder

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sports card Nation the hobby is the people Weekly News and interviews It's
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Your Number One Source sports card Nation the hobby is the
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[Music] people Sports
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Nation what is up everybody Welcome to episode 35 of sports card Nation got a
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great show planned for you today not one guest but two guests they've
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been here before but it's been a while figured it was time to bring them back on and and catch up uh I saw him in in
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Cleveland and uh went up to him and uh as always uh talked with him but said
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hey T time to get back on on the podcast but they're very busy but thankfully
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they made time uh for the show and who am I talking about Chris mcel and
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Christina Thorson uh from card ladder and uh great analytics uh tool that uh I
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employ and uh as as do many others uh they were acquired by collectors a
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couple years back so we're going to talk about the dynamic what's changed if anything some hobby stuff uh always
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great uh catching up with with Chris and Christina so uh that's Today's show
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that's what we have planned let's take a quick 30 second break and we'll be with
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Chris and Christie iron sports cards is your number one source for all your PSA and other grading submissions their
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Elite status improves turnaround times heck they even provide the card Savers their chat rooms provide updates on all
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your submissions they also offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases check them out on Facebook at
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irons sportscards group or on the web at irons sportscards.com or even give them a call at 1 1877 i n PSA Rob's got you
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covered
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[Applause] always happy to have the next two people
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on the sports card nation and sports card shop uh guest line that this is not their first appearance I might be third
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or fourth I'm not counting just glad to to have both of them back uh from card
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ladder uh Chris and Christina welcome hey John thanks for having us yeah
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thanks for having us back John I just want to start with this uh I it's it's
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it must have been six or seven years ago now when I was first kind of looking for hobby podcasts to listen to I'd been
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back in the hobby for like two or three years but I didn't really you know look for podcasts or even think they existed
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at that time but yours was probably the first or one of the first I found and I
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remember back then man you know the mic was maybe a little lower quality and
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know trying to for I'm trying to forget that stuff Chris thanks for we have nightmares now it's cool though man it's
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uh I've been following your journey from afar since at least back then and it's
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it's great to be well I I appreciate that yeah I it's funny I and I've said
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this on the show like if it wasn't really part of the history and the fabric and and the archive of the show
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I'd probably delete some of those early episodes every once in a while I'll throw one on just to just to reminisce
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or hear how bad it actually was and I cringe and like I said if it wasn't
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really I didn't if if if I felt like people wouldn't say because there are people that actually try to catch up and
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I'm like you know if I did delete them which I I almost like to do there be people be like hey what happened to
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episode 1 to 50 I can't find them they're gone you know I don't want to answer those but I appreciate it yeah
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you know like anything you hope you hope you get better at uh anything you do you usually do uh I think I have a little
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bit anyway if anything in the very least the audio is it better than uh in uh
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2018 which you know it sound it doesn't sound like that long ago but six years in the hobby six years of content
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creation actually is a long time so yeah it's crazy it's like you know here we are we're in the 300s of episodes which
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I know other shows have but when you're once a week episode that's a that's that's a lot of episodes and uh you know
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so it's it's crazy and it just real it makes you realize how old I am as well so thanks thanks for reminding me there
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no problem as well well listen you're you're you guys are in content creation
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as well House of Jordans and then now now with uh with crossover you you're
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not no you're not newbies either um as well so I mean we've seen the hobby all
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facets of the hobby right different companies content creation uh grow right the Hobby's
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gotten bigger uh in one way but smaller with social media in another just uh now
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as as someone who's been in the hobby a while both of you like kind of your thoughts on on where the hobby is today
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and and maybe where it's going to you know go yeah I like how you put that uh that the number and the size and scope
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of the Hobby's gotten bigger but we've we've gotten closer because we have social media so we can chat and share
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each other's Collections and make content and stuff so I that's an interesting way to put it um yeah I
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don't know John it's uh I think the right metric that I use to measure the
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hobby personally is uh how much fun am I having when I'm collecting cards and you
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know am I am I enjoying the process am I enjoying browsing eBay am I enjoying you
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know the thrill of finding and chasing new cards am I enjoying watching sports
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am I enjoying my hobby relationships and friendships I have with people and the boring answer is yeah I am and I think
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it's just it's a good time to be in the hobby it was it was good to be in the hobby two or three years ago it was good
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to be in five years ago it was good to be in eight years ago for me I mean I sometimes I have to remind myself of
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this a little bit but I remember what it was like before I came back to collecting I remember and it it just the
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of life was just not as good and and it's and life ever since cards became a
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major part of my life uh it just makes my life better uh every day you know just gives me something I really enjoyed
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doing so that's that's my uh sense of the hobby right now I wonder what Christine is um yeah I just want to
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point out that Chris and I started dating before he re re-entered the hobby so when he says that like his life was
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worse back then just always makes me chuckle um but but um I I think it's interesting like
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you both said like uh social media and the way that we interact
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constantly um has definitely brought us all closer and I know that um you know
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being able to find cards seems easier now but it often isn't as uh I am
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personally experiencing a four-year Chase on one card um that I cannot find
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that has never been sold which is just ridiculous but um you know I I enjoy the
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fact that we're a tight-knit community um and you know people look
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out for each other and they want to help others um and you know we can't let Bad
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actors uh impact our view of the larger experience because they're so small like
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like not just as people but characters um um but yeah so I I think that you
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know like Chris said like it's been a fun journey and I wasn't a collector as a kid so it's been something that I was
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introduced to um as an adult and uh I've enjoyed every moment of it uh even the
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one even some of the moments that like are trying uh are still you know a lot
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better than other aspects of society and life so I'm here for the long term yeah
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I I like both those answers right you mentioned Bad actors I don't want to spend a lot of time on that Christina
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right well for every negative or or bad story that in the hobby you know there's
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20 good ones right and we don't talk sometimes I think we don't talk enough about them I'm not saying we don't talk
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about it because we do but it's it's that train rack mentality everyone wants to slow down and look at the the r back
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or or make light of it or make it even a bigger deal out of it than it even uh
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might be and you know I always something happens bad and you know I'm sure you get a DM or a message hey do you see
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this what do you think it at and I'm like and I'll give my opinion I'm not shy I'm pretty but at the same time I I
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I also try to stress to you know whoever I'm conversating with or or corresponding with like you know this is
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not a good story but there's 10 20 right story someone who's lost their
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collection due to a natural disaster or something else a theft uh God forbid and
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the community like you said Christina uh which is a great one and and bands
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together and will'll collect some stuff and send it to someone no questions asked you know no strings uh attached
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and sometimes we don't you know it's reported but that negative story is just going to get a lot more traction I get
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it's like that in in regular news and so like you said in society as well it just
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you know it carries over but you know I always try to make a point for every negative let's also you know keep in
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mind is the the the good and great outweighs the bad uh tremendously that's
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what makes the hobby great you're enjoying that's why we're all talking today and enjoying uh the the hobby you
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know we we we're enjoying it in the moment but you know I've been in it 40 years it's crazy to say that um so I
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always think you know obviously I'm not going to be around forever people you know are going to carry the torch
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forward but I always worry I don't want to say worry maybe that's too strong a word but I always concerned for where
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the Hobbies go and you know do you think like that or is are you concerned or you
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just feel like you know I I I always get every once in a while get a mess oh the
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Hobby's dying or the all these bad things are going to people going to leave or The Fanatic takeover you know
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the hobby was around before me it's going to be around after me um it may
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look different it may be different it's not going anywhere the sky is not falling but that being said I I still am
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concerned because I want people to have a good experience in a hobby kind of your thoughts on on like even past today
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if yeah I'm gonna second your notion that uh I have concerns but they are
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trumped by first of all just the the overall Joy of collecting that people have and second of all that I'm not I'm
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going to do my best to not let them interfere with my enjoyment of collecting but do take them seriously but yeah I have a lot of concerns
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honestly one of the concerns I have is just that uh I just get concerned that cards overall just might be too
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expensive and they just might be overpriced in general and I look at that
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I think that's a trend across a lot of different categories I think uh there's a real risk that a lot of quote unquote
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assets and I'm not trying to lump Cards into an asset category they're collectibles but uh I think there's a
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lot of things that might be a little overpriced right now and you know you can trace that to inflationary pressure
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fiscal policy monetary policy you can trace it to a lot of things potentially but but that's one thing I worry about
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is that cards are overpriced and people like myself and a lot of others just we keep collecting and we want to collect
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and we're not going to stop collecting but I worry that you know we might be buying overpriced things and that might
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hurt the pocket a little bit down the line if and when things correct so I think that's a concern um and it and
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it's a good one for for people to make their own evaluation on take take stock of the historical prices of the stuff
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they're collecting compare it to the opportunity cost of what people otherwise would be spending their their
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uh discretionary income on and their disposable income on and just see if it makes sense or not I think everybody can
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perform that on calculation it might be different for what some people collect versus what I collect but that's a concern another concern is that
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uh what is the what is the uh collecting
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experience going to be centered around going forward um is it going to be
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continually pushed towards gambling is it going to be continually pushed towards you know crap shoots where you
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know the the the the hobby experience just becomes a constant role of the dice to see if I'm going to win big or if I'm
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going to lose at all today and then try again tomorrow and I'm and I'm not against that necessarily in moderation I
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think it's fun to have a healthy assessment of your risk tolerance that you can do within a reasonable budget
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and I think everybody's an individual who can make that determination for themselves but I just wonder are we
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being marketed and siphoned and pushed into uh a collecting experience that's
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that that's that's forgetting about all the reasons why we love collecting and
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it's being geared instead towards like hey come empty your wallet on this slot machine and maybe you hit big but you're
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probably not going to and over the long term you're definitely going to lose you know but hey let's do it that way I mean
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that that's just not why I got into the hobby I just it it kind of can distract us from collecting I think and and and I
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would always like if anybody came to me i' would just say you know the reason why I love the Hobby and maybe this isn't why everybody loves it but I love
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I love the art of collecting I love acquiring cards I love reassessing my collection I love upgrading it
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downgrading it trading buying selling I just love the whole curation process
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that and that's a lot of fun and it can be very rewarding and so you know that's where I would say we should be focusing
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the the hobby messaging on is is the the joy of collecting but there's two things that I gave that I'm that I that are
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concerns of mine uh now I'll let Christine maybe give a few um you know I
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I like to to say that I'm a realist with optimistic Tendencies John so I see
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what's happening and like yeah I have concerns but I think that the majority
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of the hobby are just you know true collectors who don't really get involved
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with the politics and the marketing that people try to py onto us um you know I
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think all of us are a little bit uh geeky and OCD and that's why we collect
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and that's why we like to like we have our lanes and we like to like you know
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knock those uh items off of our list uh when we collecting or you know discover
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new things and I think that I think that the hobby is made up of a lot more
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intelligent people than some companies would like to uh believe and those
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people aren't going to do something that's bad for them and their family in the long term so hopefully you know
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we're not going to go too far down this gambling road but you know I think that
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it's easy to get greedy when uh especially like bottom lines and profit
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and going public and all these other things that are happening for these boards and these companies are on the
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board to play but um I can't control that neither can you guys obviously so
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I'm just gonna you know do what I like about the hobby kind of ignore the rest
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uh you know it's not for me like I'm not that person so I'm just gonna go over
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here and do what I love and offer Solutions and a space for people who
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also love collecting the way that I do and offer that community on this other
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side of the Hobby and kind of let them go do them and if someone wants to do it
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that's cool like go have fun but you know I just I know that people are a lot smarter than others like to think so um
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yeah that's that's where I am like my concerns and your concerns like are
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obviously valid but like my concerns are more you know um making this space
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making sure the space is around for all of us when we're older and for the next generation and generations beyond that
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uh to enjoy the aspect of collecting cards yeah well said both uh great
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points on on both accounts uh someone's at my door I've got to get that be right
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[Music] hotline sports card nation has
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returned you know you Chris about the affordability right I started in
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1979 when PS were 25 cents right uh it's crazy even to say that like even though
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I lived it even like just talking about it uh those days are obviously in in the
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rearview mirror and you know I'm I'm sure you feel the same way you see kids at a show enjoying the hobby you know
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carrying a Zion case with $40,000 of inventory uh in it but whatever I'm I'm
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kidding didn't but you know I I all joking aside like seeing kids enjoying the hobby however they're doing it right
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whether it's their collections that big or they're starting small um that I started as a seveny old right I I
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believe like that bodess well for the hobby you have Young Folks you know
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enjoying it or or starting early like I I think you're more AP to stay with it
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or return to it when you start young than if you just come in and you're 23
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24 years old um you make it out quicker I mean every everyone's different I
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don't want to paint with a broad bro I was gonna say yeah go ahead I got in after college
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like literally like two weeks after we graduated I I'm here for the long term
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yeah and and and and I'm glad you are but I think it's maybe not for you Christine but I think it would be an
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easier exit for some that are kind of late entry not that they'll use that out
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but um I think when you're in it at a young age you you there's that Nostalgia
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Bond there's that memory lane thing that takes you back like even talking about buying 25 cent packs in9 and I laugh
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about that but you know here I am in 2024 and I'm still around and still
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doing it right and but you know you that's a great Point Chris about the affordability right maybe people getting
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scared off like this I just I can't I can't do this hobby I'm you know um but
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I always say like even if like you know we can get into the whole Fanatics thing
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it's it's a a horse that's been beaten quite a bit but even if you don't like that I grew up in Brooklyn New York in
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toss' backyard the original Topps um I'm a fan but you know having that much
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market share or Market control I don't necessarily think that bods well I like to see I think more people producing
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stuff uh you know brings out competition brings out better products um always
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build and that's not a hot that's not a cards thing that's I think just in in general in any kind of business or
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product uh we're we're obviously talking about and and I've had people I'm sure you've heard it like how am I going to
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afford this hobby like you know a box this new product $8,000 a box 20,000 and
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I just say you know you don't have to buy those products and you you don't even have to buy wax or packs you can
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buy cards that have already been produced and as as someone who heavy vintage as in my case that's
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exactly really what I do so you don't if you don't like one aspect of the hobby
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you you don't have to leave you could just hobby a different way and make it
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affordable whatever your budget everyone might have a different budget some people are going to have more discretionary income than others and so
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I always When someone tells me that I I get where they're coming from but I also want to point out to those folks like I
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hear you but there are other ways to hobby on whatever budget you're on it's still it still make it enjoyable and um
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you know and and that's like you said Christina that's what I do um and uh you
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can still do it so you don't have to buy the new fangled product you can buy a
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card that's already been you know produced and and out in the on the
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secondary market and enjoy it just the same maybe didn't pull from a pack but
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that that's okay too and so uh yeah I like I I like both what you said and I
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always try to when I get those kind of messages I always make a point to you know I'm not saying they don't have a
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point but there's other ways there's other ways to enjoy the hobby you don't have to you know get frustrated and
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leave I mean unless you really really at that point you know everyone has to make
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uh that decision uh for themselves you know card ladder uh you started that
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it's it's one of the leaders uh in the analytics and and IND
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acquired uh almost three years ago now coming up on the three-year anniversary uh speaking of that like now
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almost three years in since the acquisition you know how has it changed you know how you do it what you do uh
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your even your view on it Christina you it hasn't changed anything John um so card ladder operates as a
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completely individual separate company we still operate as a small business
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um you know Chris Josh myself and Nick we all just like we do what we do every
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day no one takes days off still we work every night still um and we still are super
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passionate about what we're bringing to our members and to the Hobby Community we take pride in our work and I think
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that passion and pride show um we're like I said we're here for the long term
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we're collectors we're not going anywhere and we want to make sure that people have accurate transparent data so
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that they can make the right decisions for themselves um and it's just a tool
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to help uh everyone in the hobby because we do have a free site as well everyone
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um so that they can do what's right for them and their family and however you think of collecting whether it's you
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know discretionary hobby uh investment however you like want to think about it
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we give you data so that you can make the best informed decisions possible um
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I am thankful like that you know Nat Turner has let us run uh where we see
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fit like we're kind of I don't want to say like we're like you know dug from up
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where we're like squirrel and then we like run over that way um but allowing us to continue the way that we yeah nice
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up reference yeah thanks it's one of my see my son's 24 so I
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actually never seen that movie but I'm sure plenty out there listen know exactly what you're talk but I get I get
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the general I get I get um we we're able to Pivot as a small
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company um to this day when a member or a hobby Community like me like member
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says something to us about how like this would help or um like I need X we're
25:58
able to quickly solve it and uh get things done in the business that you
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know larger company larger companies can't because you know there's checks that have to be made or like you know
26:11
like someone has to go check with this person or this team and instead it's just us talking to each other and being
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like okay how do we do this and what's in the best interest of the hobby which is always the last question we ask
26:25
ourselves and each other when we're making business decision um and I think
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that that shows and that's why uh card ladder has become such a trusted brand
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in the industry um not just by hobbyists themselves but by other companies as
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well too because they see that we're here to help the longevity of the Hobby
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and the industry and we're not going to cash out or do something that's not in
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the best interest of uh I I don't want to talk and sling mud but like we're
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here for the right reasons I'll just end it at that well yeah I I'll I'll I'll
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Pat I'll I'll toot your hord for you Christina like you know when you're acquired right you could have exited
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stage left right but you're passionate about it uh you love what you do even
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though it's a grind just keep it real right it's it's work you know that's I don't think people realize too like the
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work that goes involved like you say late nights staying up and maybe not getting as much sleep as you planned on
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or hope hope for right so you could have e took the easy Road out if that was the
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choice that you made so anyone that thinks that or questions that they they don't know what you're about or who you
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are and and there's going to that's going to happen you know uh there that just comes you know SP for the course
27:51
comes with the the territory so I I think it the proofs in the pudding right that you're you're still doing do it
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even after the the three years ago almost three years ago uh I think that
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speaks volumes to work ethic uh care passion dedication I'm running out of
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adjectives but I think people I think people get uh the idea you know I I have
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the advantage of of of knowing you may be a little bit different than probably many of the listeners uh maybe not all
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of them but many of them so I get it but uh you know you could have easily you
28:27
know when that happen said okay and and let's go do this now something else or even leave the hobby entirely right
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we've seen that we've seen that happen uh as well and that's not the case here
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so uh while I know you're trying to you know not you know not pat yourself on
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the B I'll I'll I'll do it for you because I I know I know you know that's the facts and that's the case uh and I I
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think I think I think a good percentage of people understand that and get it but
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you know and you can't worry about the ones that don't that is what it be so Chris anything you you know
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John you want to add anything to that or just a little bit I thought Christina
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did a great job and John I couldn't have uh said it any better than you just did honestly I really feels like you've been
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looking over our shoulders uh to to well listen I'm not I'm not as as many shows
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as you but like you know you're there like at you know shows are fun I'm not
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here to tell you as someone who sets up at them as someone who goes to them as just a consumer but there also could be
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a grind especially when you're behind a kiosk or a booth um and you know it's
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fun and It's a Grind at the same time and yes it can be both I've had someone argue with me it's got to be one or the
29:48
other and I'll I'll argue that to it's fool in the face like when I set up a show at a de as a dealer it's fun and
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It's a Grind it's both when if if it ever becomes just a grind but not fun that's when I probably stop doing it so
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uh you know I'm a credit with credits do like in you're there you know at the show answering great questions answering
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probably not so great questions uh you know and you do it I've never and any of
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my I've never heard anyone say man you know Chris was rude or Christin it was
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never and and those conversations come up about other people that you know not
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going to mention but never never with you guys now maybe competition or you know there's been that's the other thing
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I wanted to ask you guys about too is you guys were the first or or one of the early ones that did did this sort of
30:41
thing and like anything in in the hobby right copycats come along I'm not going to give any free Pub and right and and
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and when you're at the top right and it's easy to have the ones that aren't at the top to throw mud or take shots
30:57
haters if if you will you want to call him that I'll I'll use that right talk about the difficulty of of that like you
31:04
know and and I generally think that stuff I've said this on my show just as a general State I think that kind of
31:11
stuff comes from people who are generally unhappy with their own standing and so it's easy to take a
31:17
cheap shot um it makes them feel better about themselves at least temporarily and and it's it's just so
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easy to do behind the keyboard board or a phone um and and rather than to
31:32
someone's directly you know how do you uh I know you're I I think I'll answer
31:37
the question you're almost too busy to like worry about it necessarily but you know how much does it does it really
31:43
bother you and how do you sort of navigate I call them potholes in in in
31:48
the road how do you navigate around those if you yeah no I mean it's a part of um I think a lot of people's
31:55
collector's experiences whether they work in the industry whether they represent or are loyal to a particular
32:02
company or brand or whether they're just an account on social media you know having a voice and people disagree with
32:08
them and then project intentions or motivations onto them and stuff and you
32:13
know it's part and parcel of the social media experience it's part of The Human
32:18
Experience um but uh but that's and that's a great topic but I just want to say one thing before that before the
32:26
potholes which you alluded to which is that uh you know the sort of the idea of a analytics company or you know a sales
32:34
database a price guide a collection tool and I just want to tip the hat to our
32:40
predecessors um because you know we were one of their earlier software applications um but uh but there are a
32:47
lot of great people and companies who pave the path and who have done similar
32:52
things and continue to do great things and one of them obviously is Dr Beckett who to me is the first face on the
32:59
Hobbies Mount Rushmore it's him and Jefferson berdick and I think Jefferson berdick sort of invented the idea of the
33:07
set which I think is incredibly important and changed the trajectory of sports cards forever and made them very
33:14
special in a way that they weren't going to be without the idea of the set and then you have Dr Beckett who for my
33:21
money not only did he sort of pioneer not the concept of the price guide but a
33:26
way of doing price guide and the methodological assumptions that he made in his decision to seek to reflect the
33:35
market rather than to guide it or to predict it I think that was such an
33:40
important and uh Integrity Laden decision that was huge so I think he was
33:47
certainly a Pioneer at the least in creating price tracking uh which is a
33:53
baton that we've picked up and then he was also a Pioneer in Hobby con content I I think even almost even more so uh is
34:01
a it's weird to talk about him as a content creator because the price guide is uh the first thing that comes to mind
34:08
when you think about Dr Becket but he was he was at the Forefront of of
34:13
contents of Articles editorials letter letters to the editor you know Showcases
34:19
of super collectors you know he was at the Forefront of all that and he was doing it with a circulation of multiple
34:25
Sports Editions you know NFL MLB NBA
34:31
that had millions of of monthly copies in circulation I mean no one's done it to the level or the extent that he was
34:38
doing it 20 30 years ago and I I just think without him and without that uh
34:45
and and also a tip of the hat to his contemporaries as well there were more than than just Becket uh that and they
34:51
were also innovating and contributing to that culture that content as well but I
34:57
just I I shudder to imagine where would the hobby be if he hadn't shephered us
35:03
through the junk wax era of the 80s which I say affectionately through the
35:09
shiny parallel induced era of the 90s through the addition of the memorabilia
35:16
and the autograph cards and the proliferation of those in the 2000s I just I have no idea where we would be
35:22
right now if he wasn't The Guiding hand and if he didn't bring to the table
35:28
his manner of ethics and statistical approaches and professorial style he you
35:34
know it's just it's it's almost unfathomable to to wonder where we would
35:40
be without him so like he's so in in we're just a you know we're just a a
35:45
pinky on the on the skeleton of of what Dr Becket architected in terms of
35:51
content and price guides and just reflecting the hobby Community but he is
35:56
certainly a pred cessor and somebody that I look to as a model um and and as
36:02
as well as his contemporaries too that were that were publishing and producing back then and even after Becka you know
36:08
when they made their transition in the 2000s uh to being more digital oriented and and ramping up the online aspect of
36:16
things then you also had you know vintage card prices vcp and several
36:21
other entities that were doing price tracking and and Reporting on sales data
36:27
you know going back that's you know in the 2000s they were they were doing that and that predates Us by you know 15 10
36:34
to 15ish years so there's just a lot of important uh people who paved the way and who did great jobs and who are
36:40
really important figures and figureheads in the industry all right that's going to wrap up part one of our conversation
36:47
with Chris Mcgill and Christina Thorson but the good news is come back next
36:52
Friday we'll have the conclusion and part two of our fun and great
36:58
conversation uh with uh with Chris and Christina so uh we're going to uh hear
37:03
from our hobbi as the people announcer of the week some closing thoughts and we'll wrap up this week's
37:10
episode time for our hobby is the people announcer of the
37:15
[Music] week what up everybody it's your boy
37:22
cousin eyes the people's mailman and along with cousin Tony the architect we are cousins Collectibles make sure to
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check us out on the cousins Collectibles podcast as well as on Instagram the cousins collectibl before we get out of
37:34
here we wanted to remind you of a couple things first and foremost remember the hobby is the people and as always keep
37:41
focused keep positive and keep collecting if you'd like to be the hobby
37:46
is the people announcer of the week do a WAV or MP3 file and send it to
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sportscard Nation pc@ gmail.com that's a wrap for this week
37:58
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38:05
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next week but don't forget to catch either hobby quick hits or card Menches coming up on Monday I'll leave you with
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