Ep.301 w/ Brian Kappel Collector/Author

 Transcript

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sports card Nation the hobby is the people Weekly News and interviews It's
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Your Number One Source sports card Nation the hobby is the
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[Music] people Sports
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Nation what is up everybody Welcome to episode
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31 got a great guest today Brian Capel
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wrote a book relief uh and it's
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about the leaf right the 1948 Leaf set
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or is it the 1949 Leaf set I believe Brian has
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figured it out and he's changed my mind and if you know what my original opinion
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is then you'll know what uh I'm alluding to what year I think it is now uh we're
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going to touch on that uh we're going to touch on on the process of writing the book other things he found through Court
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documentation and the one thing I want to say you know uh you know people who write books are are usually smart and
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intelligent um but sometimes you know you wonder how much research did they did they do how much effort did they put
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into it even in good books right um but Brian really deep dived as and got as
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much accurate and really you know some of it was luck some
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of it was skill but got some answers right where we didn't where I believe we
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didn't have answers uh before so we're going to talk about that we're to talk
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about some of the parallels too between you know hobby past and hobby current uh
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as well so it's not all old school stuff there'll be some new school stuff in
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there uh as well so uh real excited to uh talk to Brian it's a great book
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relief uh kind of a a play on words there but that we have some answers
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right so uh we're going to take a quick 30 second break and we're going to be on with Brian kapple iron sports cards is
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[Applause] [Music]
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excited to talk to my next guest on the sports card shop guest line he is the
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author of a new book uh about one of my favorite topics and uh a set that my
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Grail card happens to be a part of that is the I think I I'll have to say it's
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the 1949 Leaf set we we'll get into that and a little bit more detail uh but
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Brian kapple uh author of re Lea here's the book I'll hold it up I'll I'll hold
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it up again put it right in front of my face where it looks a lot uh better uh but uh it's a great book uh didn't take
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me long uh to read when when you know when you're interested in a topic you kind of just devour it and go right
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through it and like you know I always try to approach when I read Brian like I'm going to read chapters 1 to four
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today and and and this was a book like I'm like I had that plan and then I just
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kept I just kept going um I guess I'll start off with the fir was was this your
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first is this your first book you you've written it is it is it was the uh it was
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kind of like one of those epiphanies when you start going through and you start you know hey I wonder about this I wonder about that and you start getting
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all this good information that you get to a point you're just like I should probably write all this down you know and so we that's what we kind of started
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doing was going through and kind of laying out all these ideas and all these Concepts and theories that that I had
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and then I started bouncing them off my dad and he's like what about this and he he started researching some other things
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and and that kind of led to well let's just try writing a book and see what kind of comes out see how much stuff
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we've gotten and it was funny when we went down the rabbit hole how much stuff we actually kind of stumbled across and
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how many of the little connections on the yarn wall we started making when it was just like oh what about this to this
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and this you know so I think the the reason that it reads fast is uh um it's
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basically an excited kid kind of brain dumping all at once you know and that that's kind of what and so I I I thank
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the the folks that kind of helped me edit it because I was all over the place on the first one it was just scatter gun of thoughts all over the place and you
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had people like he take this and put it here so it was it was a fun experience for sure yeah and a family a family
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affair as well like you mentioned your dad being a scientist you know wants you to get the the facts right and and and
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correct um your sister was involved your uncle was a huge contributor um you know
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rest in peace know you you lost them uh but uh really kind of filled in a lot of
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Blanks on the on the printing processes of the day uh because he was kind of
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involved not necessarily with Leaf but knew a lot about uh that time period and how things were were done and and so so
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you had a there's a lot of tentacles family one but again you did you know to me I mean you could correct me if I'm
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wrong you know there's been books that have talked about this set but to me this is the first book that that really
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focuses it focuses on the set and the company exclusively would I be correct
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in saying such yeah I think that that's another thing that kind of pushed me to write it was you know as I started going
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through and and digging into the set personally because this all came from me wanting to basically put the set
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together for me to pass down to my kids because at the time when I was putting it together it was 48 and 49 which was
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the year my parents were born the year my my wife's parents were born so it was like this perfect kind of you know
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amalgamation of a bunch of things and I'm like that'd be a fun set to put together and so as I started digging into it you know you kind of go through
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the which is Common Place in the hobby is the the kind of Legend and lore that that lives out there around things you
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know be it the the the barge full of 52 tops that were dumped in the bay to to you know all the other little things
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that that we all know about and it was funny hearing all these things that that ah one person says this or one person
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says that you know net 54 was a great resource for me and you know back in the day it was you know T Ted Zenus was on
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there all the time so I was constantly bouncing things off of him and he was you know super blunt but knew it because
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he was a kid who bought the cards when they came out so that kind of started the well I have an opinion about this
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and I have an opinion about that and then drawing from my art background of being a designer and painter and
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illustrator and everything like this knowing the printing process when I landed the uh the Jackie you know it
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came in and it didn't have any hat de details on it and I was like well is this an error or is this you know oneoff
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or what's going on here and so that kind of started me digging a little bit deeper and then you get into the the
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industry standards of what the grading companies recognize and you try and get
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behind Okay well you know okay so there's a red hat Kent Peterson there's a black hat Kent Peterson and then
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you've got the Jee hermans and then you've got the cliff aberson errror and you start looking at those and it's like
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well they're not alone then so when I got blue hat Jackie and I was like well wait
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a minute so there's more than this and then you start seeing a blue hat demaggio a red hat you know Stan misual
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and it's like wait wait wait wait there's a whole other thing going on here outside of the short print release of 49 cards yeah and the book does a
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great job at like you use those illustrations like you don't just talk about those differences and errors and
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variations what however you want to term them there's there's pictures to prove it like if anyone wants to say you're
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crazy or I don't know what you're talking about the proof is in in the pudding and that's the thing they're not
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really recognized right you know what I mean people it's weird because people will talk about it and then it's like
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they they're on to the next thing and and we don't really have any sort of
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final thing or conclusion like you like you said any of these graded they're not going to mention they're going to be
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graded as just the regular card they're all the flips are all going to be the same regardless of what variation of of
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that is I mean do you think do you think that will change you think this book might be the Catalyst to to create some
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of that change um I I would love it to be I would love it to be at least considered and I've gone in you know you
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read it in the book I've gone back and forth with PSA about it and it's funny when you get further into it and the
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conversations that I had with you know Dr James Becket is that you know the grading companies kind of go through and
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and acknowledge the ink VAR which I think is is what people get hung up on
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is that you know you can have a a blue that's Periwinkle blue here and royal blue over here but it came from just a
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different print run you know it's like you can get those kind of ink things going on but the ironic thing is that
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when you look at the 48 and 49 Leaf football issues PSA actually recognizes
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the variations or the dropouts of inks so you know it's kind of a double standard to a certain degree um I I
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think that that's the thing that the people most people have a tough time kind of getting past is those color variations and I think that there's a
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lot of you know things that get hung up on just the overall appearance of the card but the the plate variations I talk
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about those are the physical changes to the printing plates that delineates between just a change in ink color
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because they you know there was no standardized inks until the mid 1950s so they were basically just getting whatever ink they could get from their
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distributor and putting that on card you know the the thought that we kind of have is that it it this is like a swing
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shift print run is that you know those presses were running the candy boxes that leaf was producing and putting
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their candy in during the day and the guys were running you know the cards at night type thing just to run them through and stuff like that and that's
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why you get all the problems with registration and you know miscuts and all of those things because they were
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basically just had a stack of card stock the same card stock that they used on the boxes they just ran the cards
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through on that so I think that that you know the color variations aside which is really more of just like that's
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something that's in the production the actual plate variations yield a totally different look of the card and
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that's kind of what I dig into in the book is is there is a subset of the original 49 cards that were printed
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that's actually more rare that falls in line with that Kent Peterson Red Hat variation that's just not recognized at
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all yeah you you you refer to them as color lines it it to me it's like where they they prevent the bat from touching
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the Border where it was before now there's color what what I I of the
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questions I had for you Brian is why do you think they did that they just the aesthetic of it or you know so it's
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interesting because I I think Aesthetics drove I think sales candidly I think drove a lot of what they did and I kind
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of get into it in the book and it's something that I'm hunting down right now because on top of writing the book I'm an active and somewhat rabid
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collector myself and as I dug into the set you know I finished up the baseball set but then it's like oh I like the
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boxing card boxing cards are great well boxing cards have all of issues too but to take it one step back the first set
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that they produced was the the Pirates cards you know the actual you know Blackbeard type Captain Hook type pirate
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cards not not the Pittsburgh very not the Pittsburgh ones yeah and uh what's
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interesting about that is as I went through and started acquiring those um I got a couple auction lots that they The
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Backs had no numbers and you know I go into it in the book that essentially I think what happened was they produced
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that set without numbers it went out in the market and they realized that they could capture a bigger Audience by
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putting numbers on them because kids would try and Chase the set which was the start of them skip numbering the
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sets that they did in every set except for the 1948 football set that's the
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only one that's true to one through 998 everything else is Skip numbered trying to just get kids to buy Cards so you
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know I think that there's there's things that happen kind of along the way that you're just kind of like uh I think
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sales drove a lot of it I think that when um they put the first cards out for
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the baseball set I think that that there was something that happened that they're like well it just looks sloppy if Babe
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Ruth's Jersey bleeds into the Border can we just put two lines down the side of it to just close it off and I think
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that's what that's what it you know because everything else was subtractive right when the with the the Kent Peterson hat that I keep going back to
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you know the black hat is kind of the main run and then they basically masked off the hat which let the red that was
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underneath it Shine through so it makes the hats brighter now I don't know if that was in a reaction to the Bowman
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cards coming out that were just brighter cards and they're like well look at all their hats all their hats are colorful all ours are black and they just kind of
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said take the black off everything's going to go to a brighter hat or what that was and then I think probably when
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they were on press they're just like well let's add these color bars to kind of close things off to make the card
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look more finished yeah it's it's interesting and and we can kind of just speculate there because the people who
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made those decisions are are unfortunately no longer with us but it it is you know like you said that that
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kind of stuff is different than just hey we're we don't have this exact blue now run with the those were like those were
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calculated or those were decisions that wasn't just hey this is the blue we have today so that's exact yeah yeah it
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wasn't a product of oh this is what we were taking off the shelf and it's going to yield something that looks different
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it was a you know and there was a an article I came across at one point that
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had um one of the warehouses in Chicago went up in a fire and and I could never
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tie that to why things changed but that could be it too is that you know that
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that that warehouse fire could have led to you know the original printing plates being messed up the to you know whatever
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it was that it led them to go through and say okay we got to reproduce everything we've got all the images
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let's fix these things that we kind of have out there and now we're going to produce our second and then that got squashed by the uh the suit from Bowman
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so yeah it it's real interesting and and one thing like you said then the skip numbering came into play which is a
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marketing Ploy as you mentioned to get you know kids or anyone to buy uh more
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more candy to get the cards to to complete the set and uh you know if a manufacturer did that today oh the
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collecting public would would he heck sometimes one card won't get produced by
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an accident not even intentionally and people want to like crucify tops or P or
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whoever that you know um if they ever did a a like a you know I know Heritage
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has done stuff but it they they tell you ahead of time type of thing uh but if if
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a company ever did that uh kind of on the down low uh that would not be well
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received in today's hobby uh comparatively speaking to you know 1949
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and and 1950 when no one really KN that was the premise right no one's going to
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know and we just got to keep I got to get my set done I got to get more I gota get more
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cards what's funny too is that you know Leaf was a candy guy you know I mean his sole purpose was pushing candy and he
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liked the cards because they provided a backer so his gum wouldn't break so you know it's like whatever he had to do to
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get kids buying more candy he was all in he he didn't care about all the rest of the stuff he just wanted to push candy
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yeah but it and I think the the book points eloquently points that out that he was a marketer right he was like you
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just said he's like we got to sell as much candy uh as we can time to hear from one of
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[Music] 5561 let's go you are listening to the
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sports car Nation Podcast for those that you know I'm
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giving away a little bit of the book like the family name was LIF shits um they changed it to Leaf it probably
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sounds a little uh nicer if you will um I I be interesting if we were talking
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about the 1948 or 1949 LIF sets that might be a little more fun uh but
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uh you know they did change the the family name um and uh you know talk
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about too you know when we talk about printing processes today it's all a lot
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of computers and and different things this is a a whole different era uh in the 40s and like you said we didn't even
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have the standardized kind of color uh system but you're your uncle uh was was
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instrumental in kind of filling in a lot of those blanks and making you like see it from his lens who who who was you
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know around during those days kind of talk about his contributions to kind of
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filling in the blanks or like you say connecting that yarn and and you know answering some questions that only
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certain people can yeah absolutely and that was the the great part about it was being able to kind of connect with
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different family members and everything and so when my dad and I were just discussing printing processes in general
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and again mine was was more from like that kind of Fine Art lithography just understanding plates and placements and
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registration and all that kind of fun stuff from what I did professionally on the screen printing level and so when you know we were having these
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conversations he brought it up that you know he he was my great uncle so he was my dad's uncle and he lived down on Long
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Island but you know after the war uh so my great-grandfather uh owned a building
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you know basically Lower Manhattan and in that was a was a print shop and so my uncle Lester worked in the uh worked in
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the print shop and so he was he was around the tech of the day and they did a lot of stationary and things like that
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but he was familiar with all the the process and so when my dad had an opportunity to go down and talk to him
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he at at 98 he was still sharp as attack and so he brought some of the cards down and it was this fascinating kind of
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listening through the phone to the conversation that he was having of just you know looking at it and being almost
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like laughing to a certain degree where it was just kind of like you know and I I kept on kind of prodding him and I say
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it in the book I said well you know are you saying these guys aren't aren't the best you know print makers out there and
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he's like ah Brian because they every time he would say something he' throw your name in for Ryan it would be like
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bringing the space shuttle to your corner mechanic you know and so he had these great insights into basically just
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saying look this is like functional printing at its lowest level and he was
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the one who who basically said look this is the process this is how they did it and I said what about the inks and he's like he just gave he was buying whatever
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his distributor had and he was just like yeah give me four of those we're going to print cards today and so you know he
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kind of opened the insights to how how a a print shop like that would work and
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and it was basically this idea of you know they like you said they they weren't trying to print van go you know
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he's like this is just straight function this was they had the equipment on site and they figured out they could run a
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sheet through and they could get basically four up of 49 sets so
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essentially you know 200 cards or so and that's what they did you know it was 198 cards 196 cards uh they could get on one
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sheet and so they would run through and run that that basically it was just a value ad for the candy that they were doing and he acknowledged the fact he's
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like well you know that's why you see the things like the the ghosting of the backs of some of the the cards on the
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fronts you know of cards that's why you get it's called a wet sheet transfer and what that is is that they stacked up
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before they were actually dry and so that's why you get the and he just called it sloppy it was just you know they did just sloppy just guys doing
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their job that's all it was and so it's like I think there's a stark difference between uh even like a t206 a gouty you
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know those processes were were much more in depth that this was really more essentially almost like an art print
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because it was a four-color process there was nothing else going on here and they they did have half tones which are the little dots that create you know
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your greens and oranges and everything like that but it wasn't anything you know to the level of a t206 it wasn't a
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handcrafted you know slate slab that they were printing off of that that yielded You Know Rich colors and and
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tones and everything like that you know it's like you look at a leaf card and you look at it like a a crackerjack card
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and you're just like well these are just you know night and day different but it's just uh it was really again kind of
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that more functional thing and and I you can understand it that that he's got a piece of equipment on site and he's
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going to try and do everything he possibly can to monetize any time that he can keep that machine on and that's
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what they did yeah again like you you pointed out too right this is was a candy company first and a card company
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uh second it's different and today when you know they're separate divisions um like Topps I had with with bazooka and
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that sort of thing later on so they were they were more worried about the candy the the cards were sort of I want to say
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gimmick but in a way a gimmick to sell more sell more candy and so you know how
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much attention to detail you know they're they're just trying to get these like you said run shifts the machines
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don't stop let's get these things boxed up he did a great job of detective work and even determining that like you said
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the the the cards were made from the stock that the boxes were made so that it was just inhouse hey we have this
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cardboard already that's making the boxes let's use that um just cost
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effective uh uh and that sort of thing and so that's one great thing you you
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definitely did your homework whether be you know going on the message boards or
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even local community boards like hey what you know figuring out what facilities existed uh in neighborhoods
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at the time and kind of you know doing that NCIS stuff right and and and
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putting together and that's what I think made the book so great is like I want like he you did a great job of like
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illustrating hey this is coming we're gonna talk about this and and then I'm like well I I don't want to wait I want
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to know right right now and so that's where I I kept reading but you did you know have that's off to you Brian
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because you really deep dived and did you know someone could have probably did half the work and the book still would
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have been good right but you you you said hey if I'm doing this maybe with
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your dad's influence of of that scientific Factor but you're like I want to do this Justice I want to do and I
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and and from your own self right I want to know too oh yeah there was a vested interest
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in this for sure where it was like you know if I'm going to do this I want to make sure that the information's right I want to make sure that it's good and I
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want to make sure that it's you know as bulletproof as it possibly could be because I think that at the end of the
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day you know there like I said there is so much Legend and lore that kind of lives around the hobby that it's like if
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I'm going to try and improve something I want to make sure that I exhaust every single thing that I can do cha you know Chase down every single piece now
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there's still some things that that kind of live out there that are Theory right that that I don't know that I still have a theory on but when I got the actual
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documentation on the court case from Balman to leaf that was the game changer because that went through and literally
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took a bunch of the things that I had in theory and made them fact because it was in the actual print that it says you
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know hey we as Leaf company went out we bought machines we producing everything in house it's like okay well there there
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it is you know because I had found the the picture of the production facility at the Chicago History Museum and so
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it's like okay well this kind of works but then when when the president of the company actually says it you're like check okay they did them in-house and
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then and there were so many of those that kind of came up that it it it I think it made for a more solid story and
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it kind of canceled out a bunch of the uh the random thoughts that kind of passed through on the cards that it's
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just like well are they 48 or they 49 president of the company says you know truck leaves Chicago for Boston March
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14th 1949 okay there it is you know so that's that's called a smoking that's
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called a Smoking Gun for for people who who know what that is and that's even
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your theories even the ones Brian that you didn't fully you you you you put it
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together well enough where like I'm convinced like I'm like it makes sense you know hearing it that way why would
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it be any other way so well it may not be as as black and white as as a court
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document even some of the other things youve put together are very uh convincing uh in in in their own right
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as well again you know kudos to you speaking of that court document I mean that was huge
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you know talk about the the talk about the court document like you know who had it why did we not know about it for as
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long you know why did it not surface so backstory of that itself y yeah so that
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was another net 54 find and and again the thing and I I've said it to you before is that the the community is what
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makes this hobby so enjoyable is that that you know people people are willing to sit down and have conversations about
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stuff and throw theories at the wall and be like no that's crazy oh yeah no that could be and there were so many of these
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conversations that I had that it was just it was it was it was wonderful I mean it was a lot of fun and so on net 54 there was a post about someone who
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was basically working on um a book about how litigations and lawsuits basically
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have changed the face of the Hobby and he had gone to the Cook County archives and found the actual document in the
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Cook County archives from Bowman the response from leaf and then the settlement and it would it had never
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been digitized so it never appeared in any searches or anything like that it was a physical had to go there and
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actually dig through the archives and so he was kind enough to basically take iPhone photos of each page and send them
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to me and I sat there and it was on my birthday actually in this this year and
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I went through and I'm just like this is the best birthday present ever because I I went through and as I was finding
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things I'm like oh they did it in the house it's right here you know so I'm going through and looking through all that stuff and it was just absolutely
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fascinating but then also knowing the the scope of and I guess this is the thing that that I find really
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interesting too is how much of what they were going through is still relevant today you know where you're talking
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about before just the the nefarious nature of of skip numbering and everything like that it's like there are
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still some tones of that in modern cards as well you know when you gold stamp a
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card when you stamp it one of one you're building the Rarity in so it it's
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different but it's kind of the same that the color variations the you know it's
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it's a little bit similar but then also if when you dig further into that document you also get into um what
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Balman was basically alleging is that leaf didn't have the rights to use the the players likenesses all right so now
28:50
you're getting into nil and what's going on in college sports right now is that this idea of who owns the exclusive
28:56
right or is there an exclusive right to to public figures likenesses and so that
29:01
that kind of you know laid the groundwork for what would ultimately lead to Bowman being destroyed by tops
29:09
because they went from basically squashing Leaf in 49 to going toe-to-toe
29:15
with tops you know and I think 52 and by the time 54 rolls around you know
29:21
Bowman's essentially you know on the ropes broke has no money and tops takes over the market and runs with it so and
29:28
the the thing that I I you know shared a nefarious laugh with was in the
29:33
documentation from Leaf because one of the things that Bowman had alleged was nobody else is making cards right now in
29:40
in 1948 so you guys are just totally you know trying to cannibalize our our Market Leaf went through and again this
29:46
was another validation point because we had found that that leaf had sub brands of Overland and DEET gum that were
29:52
producing cards as back far back as like the early 30s and so they cited those in
29:57
in the actual respon response and they're like no no no we've been producing cards since the 30s and as they went through and showed all those
30:03
and everything else they're like oh and by the way there's this T there's this other company that's producing these cards they're called Hocus Focus their
30:10
name is tops so it's like inadvertently Leaf through tops under the bus and put
30:15
them on the radar of Bowman for what would happen a couple years down the road and in turn kind of change the
30:21
whole Marketplace as a whole yeah it's a great Point too right history sort of repeats itself like with that unlicensed
30:29
produ production of players under contract to someone else you bring up nil it's like that in a lot of walks of
30:35
life right and the hobby the Hobby's not uh immune to it I think I mean I think
30:42
you agree with me I think that the court document you know I've always listen I've you know full transparency I've
30:49
always been a 1948 Leaf guy I always felt like they were produced in both
30:54
years and that's where you get both years mentioned but I think the court document assuming that president or
31:01
whoever testified to that statement is telling the truth I think we now know
31:07
it's 1949 leaf and like you said just now and even in the book like that CH kind of
31:13
changes how we need to even maybe look at 1948 Bowman not the most
31:19
aesthetically pleasing set but because of the year and when it was produced now
31:24
and now when we know kind of where Leaf fits into that chronological order we have to look at
31:31
it a little differently talk about some interesting stuff right there right and this is just
31:39
part one of of a two-part conversation we're going to come back next week and talk to Brian more about the what was
31:47
revealed in court and other things he found out right so uh sorry to you know
31:52
with the Cliffhanger uh but we'll uh we'll get back to it uh next Friday day
31:58
uh and and finish it up uh with a lot more juicy nuggets and uh he did a lot
32:05
of work uh with this book as I said in the intro and did the research right
32:11
sometimes people do things whether it be write a a column an article an essay a
32:19
thesis a book and they don't put in as much work as they could that wasn't the
32:24
case here Brian did his due diligence and uh I I think we're all the more the Hobby's better off for it so come back
32:32
next week and we'll finish this uh very interesting conversation about you know the the leaf
32:40
uh product The Leaf company the whole Topps Bowman during that time period and
32:46
how history sort of repeats itself time for our hobby is the people announcer of
32:53
the [Music] week hey every everybody I'm Gary Den
32:59
thumbs down Guy this is the sports coordination podcast the hobby is for
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send it to sportscard Nation PC gmail.com that's a wrap for this week
33:21
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