Ep.258 w/ Al from Iconic Baseball

SPEAKER 1: What is up everybody? Episode 258. Glad to be back. Got a great guest on today from Iconic Baseball Al does some great content in the process of a top 100 of all time baseball list and doing a great job and, and, you know, when it comes to list, like you hear us during the conversation, you know, some people get, get them out quick and it's just done sort of hastily.

SPEAKER 1: He's very informative, incorporates the hobby and with cards in, in the production and really doing his due diligence as far as who makes it and where they're slotted and doing a great job and fun to watch, as he counts down, he's in the twenties now and as he approaches, number one and he's putting in, the homework and, and, and doing it, probably the best way I've ever seen anyone do any kind of, you know, baseball talent list.

SPEAKER 1: So, glad to have mine, we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the hobby and, and other things as well. So, with that being said, let's get the show started.

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SPEAKER 1: All right. Real happy to talk with the next gentleman on the Sports Card shop guest line here on Sports Card Nation. He does a very popular YouTube countdown and other content as well. But, without further ado, I'd like to welcome Al from Iconic Baseball, the Sports Car Nation. Welcome.

SPEAKER 4: Thank you. You mention this. I am a longtime listener of your podcast and love all your stuff and I, I wanna thank you for your service to the hobby.

SPEAKER 1: Well, it's, it's a pleasure. Thank you out. You know, coming from you even, even all the more meaningful.

SPEAKER 1: You know, I like, I've always said. Right. We're, we're in this hobby together. It's a fraternity. I'm old so, I've been in it a, a long time. I don't know if that's good or bad. Ii, I think it's good. But, you know, I just tried to, to give back as much as I can and, and, you know, educate as much as they can but at the end of the day, right.

SPEAKER 1: It's about having fun, the hobby, an outlet, to enjoy and, hopefully I think we all, are contributing, in that fashion and, and that's what it's, about. Kind of start off. I kind of the, the, you know, basics, you know, first time on the show, question. I'm, I'm pretty familiar with it but for those that don't know, kind of you, you start in the hobby. How did it, where did it all begin and, and to get you where you are, now?

SPEAKER 4: Sure, John. I'm a lifer. I've been in it for, a long time. I think I started the first significant, accomplishment in the hobby for me was completing the 1989 Panini Sticker album, which I'll just put up a little example of that album.

SPEAKER 4: It was one of those albums where you would buy packs of stickers and then paste them in the album and try to complete the entire album and, and I'm pretty, pretty proud to say that eight year old me completed that album. Every sticker is in there. I probably didn't have the same motor coordinations as I do now.

SPEAKER 4: So, some of them are a little bit sideways. But, that was really the first big accomplishment in the hobby for me was my Panini sticker album in 1989. And, and that's about the same time where I was buying 89 tops packs and starting my, my young journey into the hobby.

SPEAKER 4: And it's just really, it's been there my entire life sometimes in the foreground, sometimes more in the background. But it's one of those things that it's always been there. You know, I didn't, I've never taken a break quote unquote from the hobby.

SPEAKER 4: It's always just kind of been either more in the foreground, maybe more in the mid ground or maybe more in the background at times in my life. Like when I was working my way through grad school, it was more in the background, but I was still looking like I was still, seeking out key items for my collection the whole time.

SPEAKER 4: I just wasn't as active, in the hobby. And then really once the pandemic hit, I discovered this, I discovered all this, this whole YouTube, podcasts, all this, you know, the community that existed out there.

SPEAKER 4: I didn't really discover that that even existed until about 2020. And that's when I started digging into these podcasts. When I was, I pretty much couldn't practice as a physical therapist for about two months, while our clinic was closed and we were waiting to reopen.

SPEAKER 4: And so during that time, I dug in to some of these podcasts and YouTube channels. And I thought to myself, wow, that's amazing. And this is a community of people that love a hobby that I love and have loved my entire life. I want to be part of this.

SPEAKER 4: So I decided during that time to start my own channel and that's what you see is basically, I'm a, I'm a collector with a lot of passion and I like to think a good amount of focus and what I'm trying to do is just translate that out into the world. And so maybe someone could be inspired by it.

SPEAKER 4: Obviously everyone collects different, but that's the story.

SPEAKER 1: Well, listen a a and, and you do your, your, you two, which is I is excellent. We're definitely gonna deep dive into that. A as well. I know you're in the Colorado area, now, but originally from Pittsburgh. So you're, you are a Pirates fan. I, I gotta pick on you a little bit.

SPEAKER 1: Probably not the year for me to pick on you being a Mets fan. We had a, a terrible season but, you know, Pirates, in recent times, not super successful, kind of known as a a small market team and then you're in Colorado and the Rockies kinda have that, same sort of feel. But like I said, I'm a Mets fan so this is probably not the year to, to pick on anyone else's, fandom.

SPEAKER 1: But you, you, you love baseball, as I do, and it, you know, it doesn't have to be relegated to, you know, one team, necessarily and you, and you put this, you know, you, you're in the pri, I think you're in the twenties now.

SPEAKER 1: On your, you know, top 100 players in, in, in baseball, you're doing a great job with it. We, I know we talked a little bit before we hit record. You know, making lists isn't as easy as people think because e especially a thorough one and, and when you do the episode, you're really deep diving into the players', accolades, accomplishments, how they compare to the compadres in certain categories.

SPEAKER 1: And it's more educational besides your opinion of, of where they should rank, right? And you, and you know how this goes, whenever anyone does a list, whether it's college football rankings and the, you know, the bowl championship series, people are going to debate or argue that this per this person or this college should be ahead of this one and, or this player should be ahead of this one.

SPEAKER 1: How much of that do you get it? Like, do you get like some vitriol from some, like die hard fans? Like, hey, you, you, you dissed my guy here, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER 4: Vitriol. No.

SPEAKER 4: A and that's good. We don't need vitriol. But, but like, yeah, sure. There's occasionally someone who's like, oh, I would have had him higher or I would have had him lower.

SPEAKER 4: But generally it's agreement or it just, you know, general positive comments on nice job on the episode.

SPEAKER 4: I love that rookie card that you showed or that's a beautiful autograph that you showed on that, on that episode. So it is just largely 99% positive.

SPEAKER 4: And then, so I don't view disagreements as negative. I just think that's, that's why I'm putting this out there because I, I want to start conversations like that like, oh if you think that Hank Greenberg was better than Eddie Murray, you can make that case and there's someone else out there that wants to make that case that Eddie Murray was better than Hank Greenberg and there and neither of them are wrong.

SPEAKER 4: But it depends on what you value, you know, if, if you like a peak talent, then it's Hank Greenberg, but also you have this amazing cultural significance to the Jewish community that's separate and only adds to his legacy. Eddie Murray was a compiler, so he didn't have those amazing eye popping totals. He didn't win an MVP award.

SPEAKER 4: You know, he, he didn't have those amazing season totals. But if you look at what Eddie Eddie Murray did over a 20 year career, he's one of the few that hit 500 home runs and 3000 hits. So you can make the case that he's up there with Hank Greenberg and Hank Greenberg is up there with Eddie Murray and it's just a matter of what do you value more.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And, and, and the other thing I appreciate with, with, with your programming, Al is, is showing those cards as well. You, you've got the hobby aspect in there and you're, you're doing your research, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER 1: You, you're doing, you're not just saying, hey, this guy's, next on the list you're really, putting in the work and, and, and it's become an educ, you know, I've learned stuff, I'm sure you've learned stuff yourself in the process of, of putting, the list together.

SPEAKER 1: I only have, I'm not gonna nit pick. I only have two, things that stand out from, from your list again cause I, again, it's all, you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

SPEAKER 4: Let me have it, John, give it to me.

SPEAKER 1: All right, num the first one is the first one, right? Number 100 Michael Jordan, you know, listen, I Michael Jordan might be the greatest athlete, to, to walk the face of the earth. You I won't. But what if it's a baseball list?

SPEAKER 1: It probably doesn't make my top 100 if it's top athletes of all time, any sport, he might be number one. So, you know, but, you know, I'll have you kind of, you know, you, you heard my kind of take on it. Well, what's say you.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, and I totally get that argument and I say, I think on the episode, it's my first video that I ever made on YouTube, but it was two years ago that I posted that video was extremely awkward and the video was horrible, horrible in every respect. But the reason Michael Jordan squeaks onto my top 100 list as a baseball player is really just because my list is the greatest and most iconic.

SPEAKER 4: And I tried to come up with some grand formula to rank players on my scale. But what I realized as I try to do that is you have the quantitative, which is easy to, to sort of categorize. But then you have the qualitative which is almost if not impossible to quantify because it, it is qualitative by definition.

SPEAKER 4: And so you have these guys that have various levels of iconic status, let's call it, let's call it iconic and that affects how high they are on the list. For example, Jackie Robinson has a much higher level of iconic than Jim Tomey. And Jim Tomey actually actually has a higher war than Jackie Robinson.

SPEAKER 4: Jackie Robinson is very high on my list. Jim Tomey didn't make my list. So it's not just about the quantitative. If it was about the quantitative, then Jim Tomey would be ranked higher than Jackie Robinson, but he's not.

SPEAKER 4: And so so Michael Jordan to get back to this point is a 100 out of 100 in terms of iconic, iconic status. And so just by virtue of who he is and his status in the hobby and in popular culture, apparel, footwear, jerseys, like everything, everything about everything puts Michael Jordan just high enough that I don't really care that he never played major league baseball.

SPEAKER 4: He hit 200 in the minors for a season, stole 32 bases though. Anyway, he, he did enough to me to show that he did play baseball. He has baseball, rookie cards. He has baseball items enough for me to squeak him on to number 100.

SPEAKER 1: I won't argue that you're, you're right on, on, on all those points like you, you show a picture of Michael Jordan and almost anybody on this planet. There's very few people who won't name them and they want, you don't have to be a sports fan per se. He just has that sort of whether it's like you said from the footwear and the Nike deal, the commercials and, and the dream team success, obviously, championships in, in the NBA.

SPEAKER 1: And and all that stuff. Very few people would, would not recognize, you know, Michael Jordan, you know, including, you know, he's one of those guys too Al that he's one of those transcendent type of athletes where even kids that are 10 years old who were not even close to being around during his playing day. Know who Michael.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, it's a, it's a generational, yeah, it's a generational reverence that, that will continue to, you know, probably just like a snowball, rolling down a hill. It'll probably just continue to pick up steam as generations go. Much like Babe Ruth has picked up steam and there's, there's really no fall off on Babe Ruth items. So, and I don't see Babe Ruth losing prominence anytime soon.

SPEAKER 4: But yeah, he, he's just a generational figure.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. No, no doubt so much so that my son Jordan who's now 23 is, is named after Michael Jordan. So there you go.

SPEAKER 1: His name is Jordan Newman. So, so there you go. So I'm, I'm not picking on Jordan. I just, you know, when you're thinking of a baseball list, maybe he's not.

SPEAKER 1: But everything else she said is, is dead on and, and, and he's just, you know, we're making a, an all time greatest athlete. He's arguably would be on a lot of people's list at n at number one. The only other, sorry.

SPEAKER 4: Which is why I, on every video I make it clear that it's greatest and most iconic. It's not just greatest. If it was just greatest, he obviously wouldn't be on the list. If you're just looking at the greatest baseball players, he would be on the list. It's greatest and most iconic. And it's in that gray, it's that gray combination of the two is where I formulate my ranking. Sorry. And it's.

SPEAKER 1: Gotta be, it's gotta be iconic. It's iconic. Baseball, the show, right?

SPEAKER 1: Iconic. So it would, it would have to, it couldn't be any other way. The only other, the only other nitpicking I'll do is at number 51 and maybe this is more me than the player itself. But Alex Rodriguez, I thought that was, I'm not saying Alex Rodriguez is terrible. We can get into the whole performance enhancing stuff.

SPEAKER 1: We won't, but we, you know, other than mentioning it, I just thought that was sort of high for, for him, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm I'm, you know, if I did this list, which I, I haven't and probably won't, I don't know if he even makes my 100 I don't wanna say he wouldn't until I like really late until I would lay out all those names, right? But I thought when I saw it 51 I'm like that kind of caught me off guard.

SPEAKER 4: I, I and I had a couple of comments like that. He was maybe the hardest guy to rank because at least with Bonds and Clemens, we have a track record where we surmise that they were clean for a good portion of their career. So we know that Bonds won three MVP awards clean. We, we know that Roger Clemens won three Cy Young Awards Clean. And we had a pretty good idea of what their career track was looking like.

SPEAKER 4: And there's actually great modeling that I, that I use in my videos for Clemens and I'm going to use for Bonds that basically it's using this statistical prediction model that with an eight or nine year sample size. And given their age progression, you could basically project what kind of career they would have had, had they not enhanced that during the time where we know they enhanced.

SPEAKER 4: So it basically follows this normal bell curve of how players generally age and how their numbers generally act as they get older. And I think it's, it's great. It's a great way to at least wrap your head around the kind of players that they really would have been or would have would have the totals that they would have achieved.

SPEAKER 4: Had they not enhanced with a rod. We can't do that really because we don't know, we don't know when he started, we don't know when he was or wasn't. And so it's like this big open question.

SPEAKER 4: The career totals are obviously eye popping and huge, but Yeah. And we can't take them at face value. So the best I could do was sort of handicapped him by about 25 more. Put him down a few seasons worth of production, basically from where he ended up, at least a few seasons worth probably four seasons worth of production.

SPEAKER 4: Down from where he ended up.

SPEAKER 4: So again, it's a very hard thing to do. He was probably the hardest guy to rank.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And, and, you know, I'm gonna pick it up. Maybe I've, I've just because I'm not a huge, a rod guy and, you know, I'm thinking of like him yelling at people trying to catch pop, pop ups in the infield.

SPEAKER 1: And so, you know, all the, even the off the field persona and, and that, but, you know, yy, you know, and I'm glad you mentioned with Bonds and Clemens, they were, they were, you know, we can make the argument. I don't even think it's an argument now. Ii, I think they were Hall Of Famers. If they retired before they stopped, started using, they, those numbers would get them in the hall.

SPEAKER 1: That's the sad part. That's the tragic part for them is no one's really arguing that they aren't Hall Of Famers. It's just the fact that they use and that's what's preventing them from getting in and, and it's, it's sad because they were, they were locks, before that, all that other stuff.

SPEAKER 4: But then again, they're adults, they're adults, they knew what they were doing, they decided to put something in their bodies to enhance. And so they're, you know, they're kind of dealing with the consequences. The way I come down on it is I don't, I don't care so much about Hall Of Fame Status. I really don't. I think it's overblown.

SPEAKER 4: Just because, shoeless Joe is not in the Hall Of Fame and probably never will be, does not make me not want shoeless Joe items any less. Or not want Pete Rose items any less. I, I still consider Pete Rose shoeless Joe Jackson and Barry Bonds essential figures in the history of baseball.

SPEAKER 4: And so it really doesn't affect the way I collect or I know there are a lot of Hall Of Fame collectors out there that, you know, the moment a guy gets inducted into a Hall Of Fame, all of a sudden they're rushing out and buying many Minoso cards, but that's not me.

SPEAKER 4: For me, if they weren't a, a guy that I was interested in collecting before then their Hall Of Fame Status is, is not important to me. Really?

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, that's a great point. You see that, right? You see that every time that happen happens, you didn't, you know, no one hit another home run or stole the bag.

SPEAKER 4: Oh, now I need Gil Hodges all of a sudden.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And see, I, I've been from Brooklyn. I'm, I'm already a Gil Hodges.

SPEAKER 4: Exactly. You already had your Gil Hodges. You weren't running out and buying Gil Hodges. You had Gil Hodges already because.

SPEAKER 1: You're just hoping that that day would come, you know, at least for his family. He's, he's no longer with us, but, you know, Griffey had 24 1 of my favorite players.

SPEAKER 1: You know, when we talk about that era of performance enhancing, he, he played right in the middle of that Frank Thomas is another name that comes to mind.

SPEAKER 1: And that you never hear mentioned as users. And so the fact that they put up some of the numbers and accolades they did, I is, you know, I can make, I'm not, I, I don't have a problem with Griffey at 24 and it matches his jersey number.

SPEAKER 4: But yeah, which kind of I, I didn't mean to do that and, and it kind of anger, it angered me a little bit because it's, it's almost like it was intense and I didn't wanna give a guy an arbitrary ranking because of his number, but that's just how it came out. I, I really believe that Griffey is number 24 and he didn't fit higher or lower. He just belonged to 24. Which OK.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, and I won't, I won't argue, I won't argue that ranking. I think it's, it's probably pretty close. I, I probably because I like him. Maybe a lot more than I should. I probably would have pushed him up a little higher. But that would have been just the, the Newman bump. I'm not saying it was fair but, I probably.

SPEAKER 4: But if you're pushing them higher, then you're pushing them over DiMaggio and then if you push him again higher, then you're pushing him over Clemente. So, it's like I, I had a hard time pushing Griffey over Clemente or DiMaggio.

SPEAKER 1: I gotta imagine the, the 1 to 50 was harder than the 51 to 100. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the 1 to 50 were like slam dunk guys.

SPEAKER 4: I think they're as far as.

SPEAKER 1: The order, I mean, not so much that they're in the top 50 but then the actual order I think because then it's more, you're gonna know people are gonna talk more about the 1st 50 than necessarily the, the back 50. So I think it gets trickier like because I think more eyes are gonna be on the, the as you get closer in the countdown, you, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER 1: People are gonna probably complain more if someone is in the back 50 you have them 79th instead of 60 you might get some complaints. But in the front 50 if you have someone, you know 30th and someone believes they should be like 18th, you, you know, they might get a little more, anime about it or, or strongly opinionated.

SPEAKER 4: Oh, I know there's one coming that people are gonna be mad about. But that's ok. I mean, it's, it's gonna be a top 10 omission. The people are gonna be like, oh, man, how could you not have them in your top 10? And, and I just know it's coming but I'm bracing for it. So that's good.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And that's what, that's, that's what's fun about the, these, these lists now, right? You, you know, you can't win the whole room.

SPEAKER 1: But if I think, and I, and I'll say this for you, I think you, you, you've won the majority of the room and, and that's, that's, I think that goes into your, your research and your deep diving and, and the due diligence when, when putting these lists together, you know, that it's not just, hey, it took five minutes and here's the, you know, here's my hunter. It's more to it than that.

SPEAKER 1: He would talk to you about it. Even you, you can tell, and that's the sort of thing you, you, you're a storyteller with, with your videos and, you know, you love the history of the game. Were you always like that? Were you like that as a young kid, a young, young man.

SPEAKER 4: Always had a passion for baseball. And in fact, I remember, I think it was my senior year or I think it was in high school at some point.

SPEAKER 4: I did a project on Forbes Field and it was like, you had to set up a whole display and have a booth. And so I, I went down to the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh did a bunch of research. I was printing out microfiche and pulling out old articles and xerox copying old newspapers.

SPEAKER 4: And I, I, I even took a, like one of these crayon rubbings of, of the actual site of Forbes Co, of Forbes Field in Pittsburgh. And I set up this whole display, presenting the history of Forbes Field back in high school. So, yeah, it goes, it goes way.

SPEAKER 1: Back and listen. Ii, I love that stuff. Right. I try to do the same thing when it comes to the hobby.

SPEAKER 1: You know, I try to learn and, and teach it at the same time and, I think that says a lot about you when, when you're like that and it's instilled in you and, you know, it just, just AAA good reflection of you. And even, like I said, already, what, what you do in this list, it wasn't like you just wrote 100 names and took a couple of hours and, and there you go and, and for many years you, you, you, yeah.

SPEAKER 1: And, and that's, you know, I think other people might take the shortcut way and, and teach their own. But, you can tell you did your, your due diligence and lots of homework, here and that you, you pass, not only did you do it but you're passionate about it as well. Right.

SPEAKER 4: So that means a lot coming from you.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, you can tell when you, when you're doing the videos, like you, you really, you know, you love what you're talking about and, care and, that's half the battle, right there. You know, thoughts on, on a hobby now.

SPEAKER 1: You know, well, let me start off with a National question. Ii, I saw your National reviews and, the National, I called the Super Bowl the hobby. It's a great event. As you pointed out, you get to meet, people you like and, and a mire and, and just in, again, in that fraternity that we're, we're all in, you know, there's been the, every once in a while. You hear, you know, a, a rumor that they, they're gonna do two a year.

SPEAKER 1: We know for that says, and now they're going to start doing their own sort of shows and events what that looks like, remains to be seen. Your thoughts are just kind of on the show landscape, the possibility of two Nationals. Although I'm, I'm being told it's probably not likely. But you hear, you hear Romley's every so often, kind of your thoughts on on, on what I just kind of mentioned.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, I've heard your thoughts on it and I agree with you on the National thing. I, I think two Nationals in a year kind of dilutes it, it makes it less special. I don't want two Nationals. Like, I don't want two Super Bowls. You know, like I think you said that exact line on one of your other, episodes.

SPEAKER 4: And, yeah, to me the National is sacred now that I've been to a couple and it's special and I make a special point to go if at all possible. And I will in the, in the future. But if there were two Nationals, I just think it would, it would dilute the whole thing. It would make it a little less special.

SPEAKER 4: So then I'd have to pick, ok. Which National do I want to go to this year or? I don't know, it just wouldn't be quite the same feeling and in terms of fanatics and, you know, I think it might be a nice, burst of energy for the hobby. At least that's what I hope it is. It's kind of, I think local shows can get kind of stale at times.

SPEAKER 4: Maybe a little bit of, pizza, maybe a little bit of energy. A little bit of innovation could be good for the show space, especially to bring in the next generation of collectors. And, yeah, so it'll be really interesting to see what they do, but I am looking forward to that, to see what fanatics show or what a fanatic show might look like.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it will be interesting to say the least. I'm a little guarded, you know, I guess, you know, I don't work for the National or, or anything like that. I have no skin in the game other than loving to go to it and enjoying the whole pageantry of, of the event itself.

SPEAKER 1: I just, I guess I'm more concerned, like, is, is fanatics going to put on, you know, I called it. I joked even before they made their announcement of, of doing shows like they were buying everything up. I'm like, they probably should just buy the National and then call it a fanatical, you know, little tongue in cheek.

SPEAKER 1: But like that being said though, now that they've announced that, you know, are they gonna try to rival the National and, and sort of do a competing show and whatever they call, whether it is the fanatical or something else? You know, I just, I, I just, the same reason I don't want two Nationals, right?

SPEAKER 1: Because it takes that bloom off the roads a as they say, I'm hoping, you know. Yeah, listen, it's America. People can, you know, promoters can start a new show that happens at, at the local level all the time. I'm not telling someone you, you know, you can't do that.

SPEAKER 1: I just hope they don't over saturate it where it does hurt the National or lessens the National, you know, if they could do it where, you know, it doesn't change that dynamic and they add, they add, add something to, you know, the show landscape then that, that's, I guess that's what I'm hoping for. I've, I've, you know, gardening from your answer. I, I think you feel the same way.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah. I feel like a, like a fanatics show might resemble more of a comic con type of show. At least that's the feeling that I would get maybe a little bit more interactive, maybe, you know, more bright lights and shiny things and things that the kids can do and stuff like that.

SPEAKER 4: Whereas I feel like the National is the National, you know, it's going to be, you know, dealers with great cards and, and that's what I love you. Like, connect with the community and see some great cards. And honestly, if fanatics put on one big fanatical every year, that was more like a comic con, I probably wouldn't be as into it, but there would be, there would be a segment of hobbyists that would be.

SPEAKER 4: And so maybe the younger generation gravitates toward the fanatical and then finds their way over to the National eventually. But if we're getting some new people into the hobby, some younger folks into the hobby through the fanatical that eventually make their way to the National. Maybe that's the answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: I think, I think, you know, both parties can, can exist if it's, you know, again, done in the right way. And I think they've mentioned that, Al that, that, that's kind of like gonna be like their, their approach and, and, and that sort of thing. I think they probably, the biggest threat to the National is probably the National itself.

SPEAKER 1: If they were to do two shows, I think, then they water down, their private, a little bit. So, maybe it's probably not fanatics that, we need to, or, or they need to work, maybe sort of overdo, a good thing which we see a lot in a lot of industries. It's not relegated just, to the hobby. So, you know, hopefully, you know, smart people make, push the right buttons and, you know, everyone's all the better.

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SPEAKER 1: We batch I know you're, you know, you, you collect cards that are graded A as do I kind of thoughts on, on the current landscape. We, we, we, during the pandemic, we had the backlog. We're, we're, we're obviously past that point. Now, we've seen prices come down and, and you know, longer return times settle down. Kind of your thoughts on, on, on grading.

SPEAKER 4: I think we're kind of back to an equilibrium. It seems like where prices are sort of at a natural resting place and maybe specials come and go here and there. But it seems like the $20 grading price I think is about where it needs to be, I think cheaper for sGC which is also great that there is a quicker turnaround time and a cheaper option. And Beckett, we'll just have to wait and see.

SPEAKER 4: I really don't know what's happening with Beckett. I really hope that they can do something.

SPEAKER 4: I don't know if they get acquired or what, what needs to happen there, but I just, you just kind of see them lagging farther. And farther behind, which is, it's painful to me because I love Beckett. And I've, I grew up in the nineties reading Beckett and revering Beckett. And so I, the, the brand matters to me. And so I really wanna see it Resurge, and we'll just see.

SPEAKER 4: But grading itself is a necessary part of the hobby as I see it, it's sort of like, what happened in the coin industry, decades ago, decades and decades ago before cards were graded, coin coin grading really legitimized the coin hobby. I feel like 50 years ago.

SPEAKER 4: And that, I think that's what's happened in the card industry where it's, it's become, a legitimizing factor and makes it much easier to go out and buy a card online and have confidence that it's authentic and that you are buying what you're buying and, and not being conceived. So, I think it's an important thing for the hobby.

SPEAKER 4: Obviously grading grading companies make mistakes and you don't have to, just to agree with the grade. But it's a, it's a technical grade, which I think is what trips people up. Well, this six looks, looks like crap and this three looks amazing. Well, sure. It's a technical grade. It's not saying anything about. I appeal nothing.

SPEAKER 4: It's literally just telling you the corners, the surface, the various elements of what goes into grading a card. This is, this is the, the regimented system. We have and it's a six, it doesn't tell you that. It's a good, I appeal six.

SPEAKER 4: That's what you need these, for these eyes.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: So, and maybe we'll see that, maybe we'll see that in the future. I think, you know, these companies are gonna, you know, I, I'm a sub great guy. I like them when you can get them.

SPEAKER 1: I think it should kind of be part of the, the service itself.

SPEAKER 1: But, you know, it, it, it is and like you, you know, be, it was the first company I graded cards with, they have hit some, they've hit some potholes and, you know, I, I don't, I don't wanna make this a pick on Beckett episode but maybe some bad choices of, of leadership and, and steering the ship and I think they're trying to, to get back on the rails and, and up to speed, you know, the, my fear for them is that, did they, did they lose too much time and, and sort of traction, where not even be possible.

SPEAKER 1: But, you know, they, they've got, again, smart people. There are all these companies have smart people in the room. You just, you know, whether those voices are being heard or, or implemented.

SPEAKER 1: That's, that's, that's the second part of that equation, but I don't root against anybody. I don't like to do that. So, but they're, they're a different company than the one we grew up with. I guess that's a nice way to say it. Can they get?

SPEAKER 4: I remember, I remember a time when you submit to Beckett and that was the gold standard. That was the gold standard company. A BGABGS 9.5 was prized higher than the PS A 10 at one point in the early two thousands. And I remember sending submissions to Beckett just because they had, you know, the, the highest respect in the hobby.

SPEAKER 4: And I have since cracked a couple cards out of BGS Nine slabs that had straight nine upgrades and they, both of the ones that I cracked out got PS A Tens. So, like, how does that tell you BGS Nine? I mean, from back in the day, that both crossed over to PS A Tens, I mean, so that's how hard they were grading back then and how much respect that they were garnering.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, again, the terrain is different. We'll see. And you mentioned a good point. Maybe, you know, acquisition is maybe their best hope for, for surviving and, and thriving, in the future, I guess only time will tell a little bit back to the, to the hobby. I know you, you're heavy, you know, his history story and, and, and, the vintage error o of the game.

SPEAKER 1: But I, in today's, baseball who are some of the players Yeah, you know, I don't want you to give out all the, you know, but who are the players like you look at today and say, hey, these are the guys that might crack my, you know, this 100 top 100 list if I'm to do it. And then in 20 years from now or 15 years from now, who are some of these young guys? Go ahead.

SPEAKER 4: This is, this is, this is how I consider speculation. A lot of people go out and buy prospects, you know, and for me it's not, I don't prospect in the, I guess the traditional sense.

SPEAKER 4: What I'm prospecting on are guys that could one day crack the top 100. Exactly what you're saying.

SPEAKER 4: And guys like right now that fall just below, that would be a guy like Bryce Harper who is very close. I think he might need a few more seasons and a ring to get at that level, but he's extremely close. I think he's compiling the numbers he's gonna need and he's young enough still to where I think he's going to get there.

SPEAKER 4: Manny Machado is sort of on the fence. He might get there, but he's gonna need a lot more. He's gonna need, you know, to have a really good thirties decade, you know, he, he had a very good productive twenties, but he's just, I'm not sure if he's going to be one of those guys who continues to stay consistent through his thirties or whether he's one of those guys that really kind of trails off into his thirties.

SPEAKER 4: That's what we don't know. But I have a few machado items. I have a few Harper items and, pretty much whenever it's clear to me that they're going to lean one way or the other. I either kind of hold what I have or double down or slowly sell off if I, I don't really feel like they're gonna be a top 100 name.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And, and that's, I used to, you know, we talk about speculating or prospecting. I used to do more of that, when Bowman was a little bit cheaper as well than in its current, itinerary. But, I, I think you, you, you know, the way you go about is sort of how I've kinda pivoted and more established, but there's a couple of guy, like, I'm a big Bobby Witt junior, Corbin Carol.

SPEAKER 1: You know, II, I think they have sort of that it factor of bar, you know, the old cliche, the old line, right? Barn injury. I think they're going to be guys we talk about for your, years to come, kind of perennial. All stars may not be with the teams they are with. Now, in, in the long term, we'll see how that sort of shapes out.

SPEAKER 1: But a guy along the lines that is more established that I think so underrated. I, I kinda wanna pick your brain here. I was, and I've talked about it on the show is, I love Trey Turner. I think like he's, you know, name wise.

SPEAKER 1: He doesn't, you know, it, it's not a huge name in the terms of, you know, he's not a guy that's necessarily gonna have 4050 home runs like a Bryce Harper could. But just across the board between, average, you know, he does hit home runs, driving in runs and steel base, just kind of that 52 overall, like across the line. I just think he does it sort of quietly.

SPEAKER 1: And I think when his career, comes to an end, I think people are gonna be surprised at the numbers they see, you know, to me again, barring any kind of fall off or injury, he's gonna be a first ballot, Hall Of Famer.

SPEAKER 1: And I think when that day comes, I think people are gonna be like, like I knew Trey Turner was good. I didn't realize he was this good. I'm one of the guys that realizes he's this good. That's, that's the point I'm trying to drive home and your thoughts on, on someone like Trey Turner.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, I think he could sneak up on people like kind of like Jeter did. I feel like about halfway through Jeter's career.

SPEAKER 4: I was in the hobby at that point. And my brother and I both collected a little bit of Jeter, but we didn't put him on the same level as a Frank Thomas. We didn't put him on the same level as, you know, other guys that are now. I mean, Jeter has kind of left those guys in the dust in terms of his, his status, what he achieved in the game. But, yeah, kind of quiet in a way.

SPEAKER 4: Didn't put up gaudy numbers and played through the steroid era and they never gotten embroiled in any of the steroid talk. And now you look back and guys like Griffe and Jeter, I mean, they're kind of the standards for the nineties really. And yeah, it could be, I mean, trade Turner is not on my radar just because he doesn't seem to be tracking well in terms of his age and his, his numbers.

SPEAKER 4: I'm not sure how well he's gonna age with speed being such a big part of his game. The speed is probably gonna trail off and, he's, he's been a little inconsistent. He had a pretty bad first half.

SPEAKER 4: I mean, he, he didn't, he didn't hit much in the first half and I'm just not sure if he's gonna be consistent enough whether his speed is gonna play well or age well. And if he'll just ultimately have the numbers and the status to ever, I'm not saying he won't be a Hall Of Famer. He might be a Hall Of Famer. But that, like, like I said, that doesn't interest me.

SPEAKER 4: A guy being a Hall Of Famer doesn't really matter to me. It's more, are they gonna be one of the top 100 guys? And I, I don't see it personally.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I don't argue that, he did have a terrible first half. I was, I'm gonna chalk it up to a new location, a new team, you know, New Jersey.

SPEAKER 1: But you know, that's the, that's my next question for you too is, you know, do you think it hurts a guy's status when they wear 345 jerseys rather than play with one or two teams? Especially one team their whole career but like minimal, I think.

SPEAKER 4: It's a no, it's a, yeah, it's a consideration. I feel like, I mean, when we think of a guy like Cal Ripken, we think of one team or a guy like Tony Gwynn, we think of one team, Derek Jeter, one team.

SPEAKER 4: I mean, the, the a lot of the iconic names we know of them with one jersey on and yeah, when you, when you kick around of three and four and five different teams, I feel like, yeah, that it takes the shine off a little bit maybe, but just a little bit. Ii I don't fault a guy for playing for multiple teams.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I think it comes down, you know, someone asked me that too. And my answer was this, I think if you look at two players and let's say they have similar stat lines at the end and one did it with one team, maybe two max and the other did it with 567 teams. I think you sort of look at the guy that did it with one or two teams, even though the numbers are almost identical or very similar.

SPEAKER 1: I think you look at the guy did it with one or two teams with more reverence than the guy sort of bounced around cause I think, you know, whether it's true or not, I think when you see someone play on 567 teams, you know, two trains of thought either come to mind, right? Maybe he's not a good clubhouse guys, they're not keeping him around for a long time.

SPEAKER 1: Maybe he's just chasing the big payday and it means more to them than staying in one place. And so whether even if it's not true, I think sometimes we think that about a, a player and maybe they're just tr you know, trying to get a World Series ring and going to a place that, they think is the best way to go about it. Rather than the two other things I mentioned. But I think when a guy does it in one place, two places tops.

SPEAKER 1: I think there is a mystique about that or, well, there's extra credit given if you will and, and probably deserved extra credit because they, they, yeah.

SPEAKER 4: It probably adds to their hobby mojo too because the guy, like George Brett, he's beloved in Kansas City. I mean, people love George Brett because it would, he did there. And so if you only play for one team or two teams that gives you enough time as a player to really solidify a fan base in that city. And so then it just kind of helps. I think you're collecting mojo more so than someone who was a Journeyman.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And I think, I think it's subconscious, I don't think, I think we just naturally just do it or, or feel that way without necessarily thinking about it. I just think it's sort of ingrained as a baseball, as a sport. I don't wanna say baseball, I think we can do that across sports as a, a sports fan.

SPEAKER 1: We have sort of, you know, Jerry Rice is arguably not even, arguably he's the greatest wide receiver ever to play the NFL. And I just remember at the end, you know, the Raiders and the Seahawks and then I think there's a, and it doesn't taint like you, he, he's still Jerry Rice, but you still remember that a little bit.

SPEAKER 1: And, and I almost wish like, hey, you just went out with as a 49er and I'm not a, I'm a Steelers fan. So, you know, it doesn't matter to me.

SPEAKER 1: You know what I mean? As a 49er, but just as a, a fan of, of the sport. But, I think guys who play, like you said, Rip and Brett, there's, I think it enhances their legacy. Where I think the opposite can kind of, I don't know if tarnish is the right word but not enhance it. As much when you, when you sort of bounce, bounce around. So, I, I was just curious to get your sort of, take on it.

SPEAKER 1: As someone who loves, loves the sport and a historian, o of the game. All right. Winding down here. Al, coming up, here, you know, hobby, Magic wand. I asked, I asked this question. Not every, not every guest gets it. I'm giving it to you. The hobby. Magic wand. It's not a real thing. But if it was, I hand it to you what, you only get what's like a genie instead of three wishes, you only get to use it one time.

SPEAKER 1: You can get rid of something. A pet peeve, you can add something, whatever. You know, you only get these, you know, swing at one time. What are you doing with the Happy Magic Wand? All right.

SPEAKER 4: I did, I didn't get very much time to think about this but, the one thing that, that popped into my mind when you asked, when you said the question was, I wish we had upper deck producing baseball cards again. You know, I miss the upper deck designs. I miss the sp designs, the chirography autographs, the the various different upper deck products that came out in the nineties, especially for me being a nineties kid.

SPEAKER 4: So I wish I could wave my magic wand and give upper deck a license to produce baseball cards and then they could do, you know, buybacks again, do sp buybacks and release, new, new sets of sp with nostalgic designs in the nineties. And I would just love upper deck to be back in that game again.

SPEAKER 1: I like that answer. I like that answer and I agree with you and, and you know, they, they do the hockey, if you see, you know, I review some of their hockey products, I'll from some of the really, really crazy nice designs. And when I opened the hockey products and like, like you just said out, I'm like, man, this imagine baseball players with these kind of design and, you know, I love that.

SPEAKER 1: Like you like you, I grew up in the same, a little older, but grew up in that, that was in my wheelhouse as well. And you, you mean, I don't know if we'll ever get them again, right? They say you can't go back.

SPEAKER 1: But, I, I agree I, I think that's a very good use of it probably, you know, I've never really, I have a lot, I have a lot of, if I, if the one was real, I'd be using that thing a lot. Right. That, you know what you said would probably be, moved up right on my list because I think you hit the nail, I think you hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER 1: I might have mentioned too what you mentioned in the, the sticker book that kind of started, started it all. I started in 79 with, with a, a baseball pat, but I remember doing the 1982 and it was, sticker books. And you, you brought this up on your show even in 89 but even in 82 you could trade your, your duplicate stickers and fill in the gaps and the, the missing stickers.

SPEAKER 4: Could you imagine these days, you know, you, you, you mail cards back to Panini or you mail cards back to top, but.

SPEAKER 1: Everyone, everyone would want the, the rookie, whatever the flavor, rookie stick. You're like, hey, I'm doing 10 sets. I need, here's 10 doubles and I need 10, number 2, 82. Of exactly, which just.

SPEAKER 4: Shows you right there how the hobby has changed in the last 30 years is, you know, the collector is not as focused now on finishing a set or finishing a sticker book. It's more about, you know, stacking, you know, the hot rookie or getting the big hit now. So just this kind of a of a different world back then.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, that was my mission. You know, that's crazy man. Thinking about it even now 18 to doing math 41 years ago that 1982 and I remember I opened the packs and you look at the, the the front and then you look at the number in the bag. You go to the book where it would be that I have it already and I have it already. I don't need it. Right. It didn't matter whether it was a superstar.

SPEAKER 1: You wanted to, to complete that book and, and put them in the book. And, like you said, it's a, it's a kind of, kind of a different hobby now, you know, still fun, still enjoyable. But, the terrain is, is definitely, different but it's, it's fun to sort of reminisce and go back and, you know, if, if you didn't, if you didn't live through it, people wouldn't sometimes get it or, or understand it.

SPEAKER 4: And I still love paging through that book. I, I still get out that Sticker album. I, through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: So I, I went in my garage, the other day and I still have that thing. It's, it's not, it's a little loose. It's not, it's not, ps, a 10, standard.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, mine isn't either.

SPEAKER 1: It's still, it's still the original one and I gotta bring it in. It's in my garage. It's, I mean, it's, it's a sealed garage. It's not like it's exposed to the elements, but I had to bring that in.

SPEAKER 1: Maybe do something with it, content wise and kinda talk about what? Really? Yeah, it wasn't what started at all but it was the fir, I think it was the first time for me Al that I was looking to complete something in the hobby. I think it was the first for me.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, for cause from 7981 I was just collecting cards and trying to get as many, I wasn't putting them necessary. I would put them by teams and then Rub Vans. So I like the Oakland A so I wasn't making sets yet. It was just, you know, keeping them by teams and, and favorite players. And that, that 82 step book was the first time I, I like set a goal.

SPEAKER 1: Like my mission is to like get every sticker in this book and I did it and, you know, so there's something to be said, you know, you know, about that. So I have to dig that out, maybe do something, with it. And so here when you talk about the 89 1, it, it brings back memories of the, the 82 1. It also makes me feel old, which I am but.

SPEAKER 4: About seven years older but, you know, not that much older.

SPEAKER 1: I think I might have a few more years on you. But, you know, that's, it is what it is. You can't, like. My dad says there's only one way to stop getting older and I don't like that way. So, exactly, a very alternative.

SPEAKER 1: So. Well, I appreciate you. You coming on, we'll have, we'll have you back on and, and, and I love chopping up the hobby with you. Give out where people can find everything you're doing, YouTube wise, Social Media wise.

SPEAKER 1: So people can find out if they haven't already go backtrack 100 to I think 2021 and see where you listed you have and it's not, you just don't do the, the list you do other content as well. I wanna make that clear as well. So where people can find all that stuff. Yeah. So take your time, give out all that all that info.

SPEAKER 4: Thank you, sir. Yeah, it's just Iconic Baseball on YouTube and Iconic Baseball on Instagram. Those are kind of my two platforms. I do a an Instagram post at the same time as I post my YouTube video. So, if you ever want a closer look at some of the items that I'm showing on my YouTube channel because I sometimes show them and then they go away and you're like, oh man, I wish I got a closer look at that card.

SPEAKER 4: There's a tandem post on Instagram for every YouTube episode. So you can kind of scroll through all the items that I showed on that YouTube episode on Instagram. So they kind of pair in together and I guess we're gonna be at number 20 next this coming Saturday. So we're getting into the top 20. It's getting exciting. I, I can't wait to, to kind of get into these really, really inner circle iconic names.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, if you're listening to this on show Release Day, which is Friday. There you go tomorrow.

SPEAKER 1: If, if not sooner or already check out what I was doing very diligent with the work he, he puts into these, you know, that sometimes are overrated. People can jot them down on a piece of paper real quick. You know, if you said John give me your top 10 baseball players of all time, I could probably come up with something in 20 minutes and, and they'll tweak it here and there.

SPEAKER 1: But that's not the kind of list you're doing. You're, you're deep dive in these, like I said earlier doing the research, doing the homework, teaching in the process which I I love and I'm learning, I'm learning as well as as I'm sure a lot of other people.

SPEAKER 1: I'm sure you're learning too as you sort of, you know, like you said, you know, I know, I, I, with the micro turn, like, I didn't realize he stole 30 some basis and, you know what? I didn't either until you said it. So, you, you, you taught me right. And that's, that's, that's, that's the fun thing, about the hobby.

SPEAKER 1: I don't care how much, you know, there's always something, you don't, we can all learn together and you do a great job. So, I don't have to tell you this but continued success and it'll be interesting to see the top 20 you mentioned the guy that, you mentioned one that might get a few people's guff or omission or wherever they are, you know, not, not ranked. So it it's always fun.

SPEAKER 4: Yeah, I welcome the the conversation that it creates so that it's part of what makes this fun for me. It's what I'm passionate about. It's what I've done pretty much my entire life to begin with. I'm just so thankful that there is a community out here on Social Media on YouTube podcasts, Instagram.

SPEAKER 4: And there, there is that sort of network of collectors out there that loves this stuff, like, like, like I do. So I thank you, sir for having me on, you're one of the first podcasts I found when I found this whole world and, it means a lot to me that you would reach out and have me on.

SPEAKER 1: Well, I appreciate it. Let's, let's do this. If, if you're willing, we'll have you back on. Maybe when you get into the kind of winding it down and kind of, kind of come back and do a wrap up and, and talk about other hobby stuff, as well again. So, anytime.

SPEAKER 1: All right, thanks Al, thanks John. Definitely a fun conversation with Al. Glad to have him on. And that's a guy like, like I said, during the conversation itself, who's does his homework, knows his baseball and producing quality content. Not just a top 100 baseball list but other content as well. So check his stuff out and I hope to have him back on relatively soon.

SPEAKER 7: Time for our hobby is the people announcer of the week.

SPEAKER 4: Hello, Sports Card Nation. This is Al from Iconic Baseball. Keep collecting, stay iconic and above all else. Remember that the hobby is the people.

SPEAKER 7: If you'd like to be the hobby is the people announcer of the week, do a WAV or MP3 file and send it to Sports Card Nation PC at gmail.com.

SPEAKER 8: That's a wrap for this week. Huge thanks to you, the listeners out there because without you, there is no ice.

SPEAKER 8: If you like the show, we truly appreciate positive reviews, big ups to our great guests. Who drive the show and our awesome sponsors who make it all possible. Sports Card Nation will be back next week but don't forget to catch either hobby quick hits or cod mentions coming up on Monday.

SPEAKER 8: I'll leave you with this.

SPEAKER 8: How do we change the world?

SPEAKER 8: One? Random act of kindness at a time.

SPEAKER 8: Remember the hobby is the people?