Ep.246 w/ Paul Lesko "The Hobby Lawyer"

SPEAKER 1: What is up? Episode 2 46 of sports coordination. Got a great one on tap for you today. This gentleman I've wanted to have on this very program for a bit now and, finally met him in person in Chicago at the Nationals, signed his Jersey. Want to talk about that Jersey.

SPEAKER 1: And, you know, we, we made arrangements to, make it happen and, we cover some ground. Paul, the, A K A, the hobby lawyer will be my guest today. Great guy and the guy knows his stuff when it comes to litigation and we're gonna really sort of deep dive the Panini Fanatics lawsuits.

SPEAKER 1: We're gonna learn a little bit about Paul too. I just don't want him to come on and just talk lawsuits. He's more than that. Right. He's, well, he is a lawyer.

SPEAKER 1: He's also a collector and a hobbyist. So, wanted to get his background there as well. And, you know, we, we talk quite a bit. We're gonna have him back on again here maybe in a month or two to kind of, go over some of the cases.

SPEAKER 1: We, we didn't cover on this episode and get followups, to the Fanatics and Panini lawsuits that might occur by the next time he comes on. Also one word of note, this interview was recorded prior to the news breaking about the NFL P A pulling Panini license. So keep that in mind, you know, we, that that story hadn't broke at the time of this recording.

SPEAKER 1: Ii I know you enjoyed this episode. So without further ado, let's get the show started.

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SPEAKER 1: Real excited to have the next gentleman on the sports card shop guest line. He's known as the hobby lo lawyer, but I like to call him Mr Paul Lesco Paul. Welcome. Welcome to Sports Car Nation. Oh, thanks for having me on. Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: Why did you have you? I know you're, you're a busy guy in, in, in more ways than one. And I know you've, you know, you've been on other shows, you're a lawyer, as part of, of your profession. So, to those that are like myself and others that aren't, you know, it seems like the last few years the hobby, been more, you know, more legal action, seems to be popping up, here and there.

SPEAKER 1: And I always, you know, you, you, you get a million opinions. Right. But to get someone who, who knows the ins and outs and what things actually mean and not what we always perceive it as.

SPEAKER 1: I always appreciate that. So, we're gonna, we're gonna touch on that. But, like I told you, even before we start recording, you're a collector, you're in the hobby, it's not like you're just a, a legal analyst, just for the hobby, even though you've kind of been the, the, become the unofficial official, one at, at that anyway.

SPEAKER 1: But you're more than that and, and I wanna highlight that. So, with that being said, like, for those that may not know, like you're collecting interest. But what do you collect maybe? And, you know, how you got into the hobby and, and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah.

SPEAKER 5: So I started collecting in the, eighties when you had, you know, everybody had a license. So you had 56 different, you know, manufacturers making licensed products. So, as, you know, kind of the golden age of, you know, junk wax.

SPEAKER 5: And, you know, we talk about it, you know, a little bit but about 86 tops. That is my favorite, you know, product. It was the first one that I, you know, collected from end to end to get every card, because it had a, you know, player in it, Dwight Gooden. And even though I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. I was collecting Dwight Gooden like crazy.

SPEAKER 5: And to my detriment that means I did not collect 86 fleer and did not get any Jordans at that time. So, so it's a kind of, it's, it's how I collect. It's, it's really one of those things. If you see me focusing my collection on something, do the opposite because when it, when it comes to me focusing on myself, I always do it wrong.

SPEAKER 1: But we, we all, we all wear that hat. I want to stick up for you. We all wear that hat. But go, go ahead.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah.

SPEAKER 5: So, and then I, really started to collect, again in about 2006 to 2008. And that's when I had kids and I wanted to get something to commemorate, you know, their birth year.

SPEAKER 5: So I wanted to like a, a, you know, a complete set of 06 or a complete set of 08 for each of their, each of their birth years. So I went to a hobby shop. I hadn't been in one in years and I was just overwhelmed with how the hobby had changed. You know, patch cards, autographs.

SPEAKER 5: The quality of cards had increased so much that even though I went there for my kids, it was probably, I was there for me and after that I was just collecting full tilt, again, for, for quite a while I, tried prospecting, poorly and everyone that I focused on trying to get, I got spreadsheets of embarrassments, of all the cards I used to get how much I spent and, you know, I don't know how much they're worth now, but it's always a factor of what I spent on them.

SPEAKER 5: But then, around 2010 or 2011, tops, filed a lawsuit against upper deck because upper deck had an OPG insert that was using the 1975 Tops frames.

SPEAKER 5: And as a lawyer and at that time I was, doing plaintiffs work for intellectual property, I was involved in a lot of copyright lawsuits too. So it gave me a, an extra look at the hobby that many people don't have.

SPEAKER 5: So that was the first article I ever wrote. I wrote a lot. I wrote an article about that lawsuit and, people were interested in it and when I wrote the article I like, you know, what would be fun? Let's get some, 86 you know, some, you know, so some of the 75 tops, let's get some of the opgs and then, you know, put them side by side because that's kind of neat.

SPEAKER 5: And that's really where my collection became focused because now what I collect is I collect cards that are involved in lawsuits. And I particularly like it when there's, you know, a lawsuit, a card on one side of a lawsuit and a card on the other side of the lawsuit, just putting those two cards right next to each other.

SPEAKER 5: I just really enjoy doing that and that's really how, you know, since, I mean, so the last 12, 13 years, that's really what I've been focused on. I get more excited when there are lawsuits and I get really excited when there's cards involved with those lawsuits.

SPEAKER 1: I guess my first question there, Paul, that's, that's, that's cool. And probably different than, than most people. Like how many cards can potentially be on a want list like that?

SPEAKER 1: I mean, you would obviously know, before me, but like, you know, how many cards, I mean, I guess you could have potentially a whole set that's involved when you come with design or, or like you said, intellectual property. But how, how long can that list be, I guess is my question, it.

SPEAKER 5: You know, it, it's, it varies year to year because it's something I need. You know, my new releases, you know, my, you know, top flagship is any new lawsuit, you know. So it, it's always increasing, depending on, when, when there's new lawsuits and I'm always finding out about older lawsuits.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, even this week I, I, I'm trying to remember what it was but, somebody pointed out another lawsuit that I hadn't heard of because, you know, I came up practicing law in 99.

SPEAKER 5: So I pretty much when the internet was around, I was, you know, raised on the internet for lawyering. So I could find, you know, any documents that are digital, digitally out there. But it's the older lawsuits that really didn't make it into the press. Those are the ones that I love learning about.

SPEAKER 5: So, finding out about a lawsuit that took place in the eighties or the seventies that I didn't know about. But right now my want list, luckily a lot of the cards involved in lawsuits are rather inexpensive because they're counterfeits, you know, so it, it is kind of easy to get those.

SPEAKER 5: But I do have a want list of some cards, that are, you know, more expensive. Right now there's a lawsuit having to do with a AAA lebron RP A and, you know, those, those are definitely out of my price range. There's also one involving a Steph Curry rookie card, tops, Gold Refractor.

SPEAKER 5: Again, that's gonna be well out of my price range. I don't have a, you know, 100 and $80,000 to $300,000 for that card either. So there's going to be some gaps in my collection.

SPEAKER 5: And then there's also, the, the syllable, you know, my, my white whale that I'm hunting down. There was a lawsuit that was filed against tops in 2011, had to do with a employee was utilized on a picture of cards. And he alleges that he was, didn't give permission.

SPEAKER 5: And it was in the top 2011 triple threads cards. These cards were only out of five, there was only five of these made and one of them popped up on ebay at the time of the lawsuit and it was worth two and they were selling it for $200.

SPEAKER 5: And in my mind, at that time, I hadn't spent $200 on a card. And I'm like, I don't think I can justify that. Don't worry, it's out of five, another one will pop up on ebay. I'm sure of it. Well, no, it's 12 years later. I have not seen another one of those pop up.

SPEAKER 5: So that's one of, you know, the ones I'm looking for. So, it's, my collection right now, focusing solely on the, cards involved in lawsuits.

SPEAKER 5: It takes up, you know, four or five good sized boxes and you're right, the ones that involve, like an entire series, sometimes I will buy that entire series, but sometimes it's just good enough have the cards that are mentioned in the lawsuit, especially if they're, you know, there's a lawsuit going on right now, between Panini and, you know, the old Wild card over Stat smashers.

SPEAKER 5: And yet that involves you know, a lot of potential cards on both sides. But in the complaint they had a side by side of, Joe Montana for both and the car look nearly identical. So, for that, rather than getting both complete sets, I was happy just to get one of those two cards to put them side by side because it sums up the lawsuit perfectly.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. No, no doubt.

SPEAKER 1: And cheaper that, I mean, I knew there was a lot but I think what I'm gonna find out talking to you, today, Paul, there's, there's probably more lawsuits than we even, you know, happy wise than we even, realize even on a smaller, scale than, than some of the bigger ones we, we obviously, know about before we get into all the, the legal, you know, you, like you said, you, Chicago, the National was in your, your back yard, your hometown National, your thoughts on it with the additional 200,000 square footage.

SPEAKER 1: What did you think? How did your, your hunt for some of those cards that are related, to lawsuits? Go, just kind of your National experience.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah. Ii, I love the National in Chicago. That's the one I really try to focus on. I'm now in the suburbs of Saint Louis so it's only a four hour drive for me to, actually get to Chicago and it's good for me to go because that's where all my friends from high school and middle school are.

SPEAKER 5: So it gives me the opportunity to during the day. I can, you know, be around and hunt for cards and at night I can actually, you know, leave to leave Chicago for a little bit and go see some friends and it, it, it accomplishes a couple of tasks at once. But I really was impressed with the National this year.

SPEAKER 5: The extra space while it was intimidating at first. It was a lot more or extra space and I don't think I actually ever really learned where the exits were.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, it was easy to get lost there, but just the, there were there really, despite that being that large, there wasn't wasted space and I thought it was actually spaced out well enough that there weren't any, you know, too much aisles running into people bumping into people trying to get around people that you couldn't.

SPEAKER 5: I thought they did a really good job with it this year and I thought this year, there were a lot more kids that I saw, than I had seen at previous Nationals. And that's, that's just always great to see, especially when the kids are buying higher dollar valued cards than I am or that I even have in my collection. So I think, I think the, the hobby looks like it's in good hands coming up.

SPEAKER 5: But I think they're gonna, you know, they're gonna buy all the good stuff and we'll be on the, on the outside saying I can't believe those kids got those cards. I've been dreaming about those cards.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's crazy. I, I mentioned this on a previous show or in an article I wrote, I can't remember but there's young and I, I was, I was glad to see it. I didn't stick around. I didn't want to be an a, a nosey buddy, but young man, I'd probably put him between 12 to 14 somewhere in that range. And he, he had you know, three raw air and rookies. He was looking at that the dealer had pulled out of the case.

SPEAKER 1: Curiosity definitely, you know, was, was my curiosity meter was up, but I was kind of done looking at the cards in the case. I didn't want to just stand around and, and, you know, eavesdrop.

SPEAKER 1: Although I was curious of, you know, the, the final outcome there if he wound up purchasing one, but it was good, like you said, it was good to see kids in general and there seemed to be more, even more families and I even saw I'm seeing more kids by vintage Paul, which to me, even warms my heart, even a little bit more and, and I think he hit it out of the head too.

SPEAKER 1: It seemed more airy from the last Chicago National, which was the last 12 years ago. I was, it, it was more kind of elbow to elbow this even for a record breaking crowd which they announced it at. It didn't feel like you were sardine can, in there. You had space to, to go.

SPEAKER 1: I know we got to talk, kind of near Craig Reiner's, set up and, and, you know, even though we were sort of middle people could go around us left and right. We didn't, we didn't get yelled at, at all. Like, I think, you know, maybe a couple of years ago the way that was set up and, and you're right in Chicago, it's not a perfect rectangle. There's sort of rectangles attached to rectangles.

SPEAKER 1: So it's the one National I know, like, ahead of time, I'm gonna get lost. Like this time, I will ask a dealer like, hey, where's the, the front entrance? And, and they're used to it and they'll, you know, they'll point you in the right, direction. But, you know, as far as, any pickups or any, stuff you added to the, the legal, the, the Paul Legal Collection.

SPEAKER 5: There, there really wasn't because what I was hunting for, I was hunting for there. As you can imagine, there are a lot of, lawsuits or cease and desist letters or legal issues having to do with 1986 Michael Jordan Fleer, cards.

SPEAKER 5: There's a lot of counterfeits out there. There's a lot of knockoffs. There's a lot of people that are, you know, changing those cards and, you know, trying to customize them and make them themselves and sell them without the proper licenses.

SPEAKER 5: I, I think I know of at least two or three lawsuits that upper deck has filed to protect Michael Jordan or to protect that card.

SPEAKER 5: So, I need to add one to my collection, but I'm really looking for a PS A one or a PS A two. I'm not looking for the high end ones. So I, I mean, there were a lot of clear Jordans there but I mean, it looked like everybody had, you know, tens nines, eights, nobody was really, you know, handling the, the dirt, PS A ones that I was looking for.

SPEAKER 5: And in fact, I stopped by one of the booths and, this, he had a, PS A six Jordan. So I'm like, ok, we're going in the right direction still can't afford this. So I asked him, I'm like, hey, you know, do you have a PS A one or PS A two or even a lead on them?

SPEAKER 5: And he goes, well, it's a funny thing that you mentioned that there was actually a 12 year old that was here about an hour ago asking if I had a PS A one, Jordan. So if there is one, he's gonna beat you to it.

SPEAKER 1: So he had to outrace, a 12 year old, for, for the Jordan.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. You know, it's one of those, it's one of those cards. It's not short printed. I mean, there's, there's plenty of them. But you make a great point too, Paul, it's a card that I, I almost wouldn't buy ungraded at this point because there's so many Fugazi and some of them are obviously better than others. So there's ways to tell. But, you know, like any, anything else, people get better at making fakes, all the time.

SPEAKER 1: So it's getting more difficult to acquire it, you know, raw and, I mean, we've even heard examples where graders themselves, every once in a while, you know, one goes through the five hole on them and they'll slab it and, you know, trimming's kind of been, a hot button time, topic where the card is real but, you know, parts of it are thinly sliced off to make, a better condition card and a grading company, you know, not, not catch it and give it a, a high grade.

SPEAKER 1: And that's a whole another can of worms in, in, in, in it, in itself. One of the things that was cool. You had a, a Jersey which had the, the hobby lawyer on the back and you had certain people, you know, from the hobby sign it, I was, fortunate enough to get to do that, kinda how that, how did you come up with that idea?

SPEAKER 1: When, when did it hit you? So, it's.

SPEAKER 5: It's something I've been, you know, wanting to do for a while because, you know, the main reason I go to the National really is to meet people. I mean, so much, so many of the people that I have met or worked with, you know, in the hobby I only know from Social Media.

SPEAKER 5: So, really I go to meet as many people catch up with people and, a lot of time, I mean, it's, it's a big, big area and I'm not a nametag guy and I think even if you wore a name tag at the National, no one's gonna notice it.

SPEAKER 5: So I had to do something to say because there's so many people I wanted to see and, you know, I'm remembering, I don't know if you were in Atlantic City but, you know, it was impossible to get wireless service, you know, on your phone to meet people anywhere. It just, you know, you leave and, you know, someone two hours ago, ask, hey, I'm over here. Can you meet me? I'm like, oh, I didn't even know.

SPEAKER 5: So, I came up with, the idea of doing, a Jersey and I had a custom made that said, hobby lawyer on the back and for anybody who wants to, it's really inexpensive to get a baseball if you want your own customized baseball. Jersey. Amazon is your place. It was just great idea.

SPEAKER 5: But, when I got it, my wife came up with the idea too. She's like, you know, while you're there, why don't you, you know, get everybody to sign. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's such a good idea. That is such a good idea.

SPEAKER 5: So, we you know, made sure that, you know, everybody, I know everybody I talked to I tried to get them to to sign it and it's, I, I think from now on, I'm gonna have to do it every year. I had so much fun doing it.

SPEAKER 5: It really, I, I spent so much time unfortunately, you know, trying to talk to people but there was, I, I can't remember who it was, but I was talking to somebody once and four people interrupted our conversation to say, hey, I want to sign New Jersey. I'm like, OK, let's do it.

SPEAKER 5: And I felt so bad because like, you know, again, I'm not like doing any like hardcore business on the floor. But if anybody, if I was, I just, it's not very professional for that to keep happening, but it was pretty fun. He actually said, what are you famous? And I'm like, no, this is just a fun.

SPEAKER 1: Thing you're famous in, in a, in a way for what, for what you do, I'll, I'll, I'll vouch for you there. But I thought it was a great idea. It was, it was fun to, to see and, and like you said, you have now a memento and if you do it, each, each National U 10 you'll have one, for you. Now, are these things, are they going in the rafters? Are they getting framed and, and going on the wall? What's the, the end result from?

SPEAKER 5: I've got to figure out a way to, display it because I'm not a big fan of framing, jerseys. I really like better when they're on a head, but I'm trying to figure out what's the best way to do it because, you know, you know, it's, it's ultimately, I want to have this in my office at work, you know, displaying there.

SPEAKER 5: And so I have hangers hanging my jackets if I have to go to court, do I hang it there next to them? I mean, so I'm, I'm in the market for, if anybody knows of a good way to display it so we can see all 360 degrees of it.

SPEAKER 5: I would like to hear about it.

SPEAKER 1: There's gotta be something I think there's a frame and, and I'm not an expert, I'm just based on something I saw. I think there's a frame which it's, it's open sided, both sides. So we can.

SPEAKER 1: So it's sort of frame but it's not, it doesn't have to be against the wall and you can kinda put it on a chain, almost like a, a triangle chain where it can, it kind of sort of floats and you can, you can move it and show all the sides and, and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER 1: I know it's 2023 there. I know something out there. It's just, it's just a matter who's who has it and, and getting it and that sort of thing. So probably Amazon, another Amazon item. I know it's my go to place.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah. No, it, it, it, and, and I definitely want to display both sides because there's some great, you know, autographs on both sides. I mean, I think my favorite one on there is Brian Gray Put Sumi on there. So you gotta make sure you can show both sides for that.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. No, no, no doubt. You mentioned being in Saint Louis, Saint Louis is a city. I've advocated for having a, a National, it's a great sports town. I'm, I'm probably preaching to the choir, that you, you, you live near there.

SPEAKER 1: I mean, any reason like in your, like, you know, the city probably better than me that you don't think is, is parking an issue or do you think Saint Louis would be a great venue for future niche?

SPEAKER 5: Saint Louis does have a good venue and it used to be the first law firm I worked at, right across the way was the Convention Center and it's a good size Convention Center and it would be able to, host, host a good National. I think, unfortunately, you know, I, I'd rank Saint Louis, as slightly safer than Atlantic City. So, you know, I felt, you know, you know, in Chicago I felt, you know, fairly safe there.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a ok neighborhood where it was Saint Louis, you know, a little more sketchy. But I mean, if you're going to Atlantic City, you're not gonna, you know, blink twice at coming to Saint Louis. And I always say Saint Louis is a, you know, it's a great city. If you got, you know, two or three days you can be entertained very, very well.

SPEAKER 5: So I think it'd be, I think it would be a good place for, for it.

SPEAKER 5: Probably won't happen but, you know, fingers crossed.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, you never know there some, the new leadership has taken over. We've heard Baltimore is back in the mix. Atlanta is back in the mix. So, you know, maybe we can, you know, it's nice to see other cities kind of at least be considered whether, you know, it gets one or not remains to be seen.

SPEAKER 1: I gotta ask you like a lot of people, you know, don't like to take their work home. Right. That I'm done with work. I don't want to talk about it. I gotta go there tomorrow and do it all over again.

SPEAKER 1: But, you know, you're obviously in the legal profession. Does it ever get, you know, to you talking about, you know, in this case, hobby lawsuits, like after, after your, your, you know, your, your job is done, like, how do you, or is it just that interesting and kind of different that you don't look at it like that?

SPEAKER 5: I mean, it's, it's, I never get tired of talking about it, but it, it's, you know, the way I look at it is like, you know, the, what, what's the thing that a collector likes to talk about is most his or her collection? That's really what they like to talk about most.

SPEAKER 5: So, you know, it gives me the opportunity to talk about, you know, sure, I'm talking about the lawsuits, but I'm talking about the cards, you know, here's the cards and here's why I like this card and, you know, most people was like, hey, I have my, you know, Mickey 52 Mickey Mantle. It's a really cool card.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah, but, you know, here's this extra layer where it's involved in this lawsuit and this lawsuit, this crazy stuff happened, you know, so, so I really, when it comes to, you know, trading card, you know, lawsuits. I never get sick of talking, about them. Now, if this was talking about, oh, yeah. And your other lawsuits that you had in your job, you know, you're suing these people.

SPEAKER 5: What happened there? Ok. I get sick of that. But, you know, when I'm talking about, you know, my collection, I mean, I mean, do you ever get sick of talking about your collection? I mean, it's just, you know, you want, that's why we collect to show it and share it with everybody else.

SPEAKER 1: No, it, it, it makes sense. It's funny. Did you know, from a young age, like, I wanna get into the, the, the practice of law I want to be in and do you know, early on that.

SPEAKER 5: Seventh or eighth grade? That's what, that's really when I wanted. Ii I knew about it. I read, I, I can't remember the name of the book but, I, I, it was, it was a book that I read.

SPEAKER 5: And it was, when I read it, it was just talking about, you know, things that happened in the courtroom and how, the courtroom worked and I was hooked at that point. It just, you know, I was always, you know, arguing with people so maybe a couple of people suggested it beforehand.

SPEAKER 5: But it, but it's, it's worked out.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's, it's funny, real quick story. It was about seventh or eighth grade. For me and I remember the teacher asked us to kind of to go around the room and like, hey, what do you wanna be? Like? You got time? But what are you thinking about?

SPEAKER 1: Like for professions and much like you, I like to debate people sometimes or ask questions and, and dive deeper and you know, I've had family. So man, you should, you know, at that time, like think about being a lawyer. So when it was my turn to, you know, say, hey, what do you want to be?

SPEAKER 1: I said, hey, I, you know, I'm kind of thinking about being a lawyer and I remember the teacher saying, oh, that's great John, you, are you looking forward to eight years of law school? And that was, that was like breaking news to me. I didn't know it was eight y eight more years and it was really like, not that I did bad in school but I knew like I, I probably wasn't gonna be a lawyer at that point.

SPEAKER 5: She kind of misled you because law schools, you know that only three years. So she misled you a little bit.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, maybe she, maybe she knew something and was trying to save everybody else. It worked because I, I'm in the teaching profession which is almost similar but not, not, not, not exactly.

SPEAKER 1: So I think.

SPEAKER 5: The teaching profession is the closest analog to the legal profession because that's how I tell people what, what I try and do is ultimately everything I'm trying to do. I'm trying to explain it to a jury. And I have, you know, my, I have a patent background. I have a biotech background. So, you know, sometimes the cases I do are very, very difficult concepts.

SPEAKER 5: And so if I can't explain those to a jury, then, you know, I can lose my case. So it's exactly like teaching and my, my sister, she's actually a teacher. So it's one of those things where it's in our blood that, you know, we just want to teach. And that's, you know, that's why I went to the law also is because, you know, it's not that you're just a lawyer, you're just arguing, you are actually teaching, with what you do too.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, no doubt. And, hey, listen, we need, we need both professions.

SPEAKER 1: You know, they're very important, obviously I don't have to tell you that.

SPEAKER 1: Have you ever been asked? Maybe not to get a, but for you like a legal opinion, from, or can you, I don't know if you can say that or in other words, have you ever been asked for sort of counsel? Maybe not unofficially, when it comes to some of these cases.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah. No, II, I won't give any specifics but yes, I, I have been approached, a few times, for legal issues in the hobby. And I've actually, managed a couple of cases. Also now I like to, if possible, resolve cases prior to filing, because lawsuits are, they're, they're difficult. They suck. They're roller coasters. You never know what's gonna happen with them.

SPEAKER 5: So, even though I, I am a plaintiff's lawyer, if you can resolve a case, prior to filing, that's a total win. And I think I'm, iiii I, I'm probably forgetting something, but I, I'd like to think I've been fairly successful in being able to work out most of the cases that have approached me, you know, just between the parties without needing to get the courts involved.

SPEAKER 5: So that's, that's really the most important thing is, you know, with lawyers is you want to get to the right resolution is, is really what you should be focused on, not just arguing and then trying to get a big, huge judgment because that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER 5: You know, most times both sides are going to pay a lot of money and then the ultimate at the end, if you go to trial, it's not gonna, no one's going to hit a home run, it's gonna be a mixed bag judgment. And so if you can at the beginning, work it out.

SPEAKER 1: What, I mean, it's what percentage of cases get like, you know, resolve without going to a court of law and jury or judge having to make a, a decision or a ruling.

SPEAKER 1: What would you say is the percent.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah, it's over 95%. Most cases, most cases, will settle. I've been practicing law since 99 and I think I've had one, I've had, well under, I've had, yeah, well, under 10, maybe five, between five and 10 actual trials.

SPEAKER 5: So, it, it's going to trial is the exception of the rule. Thankfully it's ruling when you go to trial, it's really hard and, you know, you're gonna get the flu afterwards because you're not sleeping and you're not eating right.

SPEAKER 5: But, yeah, so most, most cases settle and that's, I always try when I cover a new lawsuit. I always try to make a prediction and the safest prediction I can always say is, you know, in all likelihood, this, this case is gonna settle in, you know, 6 to 12 months. And it'll settle confidentially and we won't know what happened.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, that's, that's, I, I knew that number would be high. Paul. I'm surprised when you said 95 I, I knew it was gonna be in my mind and again, I, I have no legal back. I would have guessed 80.

SPEAKER 1: So to hear 95 it's like, really puts in the perspective of how many cases really don't ever see the inside of a courtroom which you, as you pointed out is not all, always the best end result anyway for both parties potentially and it's probably.

SPEAKER 5: Higher than 95. It really is. I mean, it's just ii I filed hundreds of suits.

SPEAKER 5: And I mean, probably over thousands, you know, so only going to trial between five and 10 times. I mean, I'm probably at below, at 1% or below 1%.

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SPEAKER 1: You said like, it's, it usually makes the best sense to try to avoid that. Have you ever been in a situation where, like, this really does need to go to trial? Like, this is kind of the, the exception to the rule.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah, that's, that's how, a lot of cases and I always, you know, when I describe cases, people will always want to know who's gonna win, you know, or are they gonna settle, are they gonna talk settlement? And really what happens is when somebody files a case, they feel strongly about the case, they think they're going to win at that point.

SPEAKER 5: If somebody, and then when somebody's been sued, they're automatically angry and they think no matter what they're gonna win. So what has to happen is you have to have some, you know, someone has to lose some motions. You've got to have somebody who starts losing stuff, or preferably both sides start losing motions.

SPEAKER 5: And then at that point, then the parties can talk and get something resolved. But sometimes there is a case where if you're a defendant, the plaintiff might want too much money and it might make no sense. You know, you might be dead to rights, but they're asking for, you know, a billion dollars when actual damages is only $10,000.

SPEAKER 5: In that case, you got to go to court. And then sometimes, you know, you'll have a defendant who doesn't think that they've done anything wrong and they clearly have. So sometimes you just need that judge, just to tell both sides, hey, you know, there's potentially an issue here.

SPEAKER 5: You're gonna have to go in front of a jury to figure it out. And then once, you know, both sides hear that, that's scary. Especially if you have two large companies because you're really having, you know, six or 12 strangers in the jury are going to make a business decision for two companies.

SPEAKER 5: Nothing scares the company more than that. So, yeah, so, so, so that's why most of them settle. But sometimes you do need to have a judge chime in every once in a while. So to say, hey, this person's in the lead, be more reasonable. Settle this case.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And, and lawyers too, right? That's where you can come in and say, listen, I've done this a while. I know the landscape. Here's what I suggest. This is why you pay it, you know, this is why I'm here. So you may not like what I say. But, I gotta be honest with you and, you know, I think that's, important obviously, the big hobby case, Panini, versus Fanatics.

SPEAKER 1: But we're gonna, we're gonna tackle that or you're gonna tackle that. I'm gonna, you know, be enlightened. But how many hobby cases we, we don't have to necessarily talk about them all. But at the current time, how many are potentially on the docket, even smaller ones that you're, that you're, that's on your radar. I, it's.

SPEAKER 5: Between 10 and 20 right now. So, and it's not just us lawsuits.

SPEAKER 5: I also look at some criminal lawsuits, that are out there too. Like one of the more interesting ones that's out there has to do with somebody was selling, fake, graded, 86 clear Jordans.

SPEAKER 5: They were graded as a, you know, 10 or a nine and, you know, he's selling them for $3000 or $6000 and come to find out that the slabs were fake. So, you know, so it's not just the civil law suits, there are also some criminal lawsuits out there that we're, that I'm following too.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And, and unfortunately, as, as you, well know, we're seeing a lot more criminal behavior when it comes to, cards and memorabilia with burglaries, robberies, similar things where you said, where people just make fake slabs, fake cards, anything like, you know, if there could be money can be made the easy way.

SPEAKER 1: People are gonna find or, or at least try to do it. So, getting into the big case, you know, Panini first filed a suit against Fanatics. Now, was it, I, I know that it was Antitrust, was it, is this a separate case with that where they where they said their employees kind of got poached by Fanatics. Are these two cases? Are they kind of 11 big one?

SPEAKER 5: There they are right now. There are two cases that there's a little bit of overlap with them. It was, I think it was back in May. That's when Panini sued Fanatics and accused Fanatics of stealing unlawful their employees. I think it was like between 34 and 36 Panini employees ended up going to work for Fanatics. And that was, that was the, the, the, the first lawsuit that was filed between these Panini and Fanatics, bats.

SPEAKER 5: The next lawsuit then was the Antitrust action that Panini brought against Fanatics and that was filed, two weeks ago, where Panini alleges that, you know, in the future Fanatics is gonna be an unlawful monopoly.

SPEAKER 5: And then right after that, four or five days later, then Fanatics sued Panini basically for unfair competition and for engaging in bad faith negotiations because it looks like, Fanatics was talking to Panini about potentially buying Panini out of their exclusive licenses with the, NBA and with the NFL and Fanatics alleges that Panini wasn't engaged in good faith negotiations.

SPEAKER 5: There dragged the process out. Made Fanatics spend $10 million on legal fees and lawyers and setting stuff up. And because of how this dragged out and went, Fanatics lost the, 2022 and maybe the end of 2022 and then maybe the 2023 year for making, NFL and NBA products.

SPEAKER 5: So they allege it's, you know, a couple of $100 million if not more that they've lost, because of this. So it's, it's, it's three, you know, well, 2.5 huge lawsuits here, you know, Antitrust lawsuits are huge.

SPEAKER 5: The damages and the fanatic suit against Panini are huge and the theft of, you know, alleged theft of employees and trade secrets, is, you know, it's, it's smaller. It's still big but it's smaller. So you got 2.5 large lawsuits and they're all in different courts.

SPEAKER 5: There's overlap between all of these. So I would hope at some point they'd be consolidated because the big risk you have is inconsistent judgments here because judges are people and people may see things differently and because, you know, there's so much overlap here.

SPEAKER 5: I could see it that a judge could make two decisions in two of these cases that does not mesh. So, so we'll see. It's, it's, it's, I, I've referred to it as a mess because really could be. But, I'm, I'm giddy about it because it's, you know, 33 big lawsuits in the hobby between the two biggest, companies that are out there.

SPEAKER 5: And, so I'm hoping we get some depositions. I'm hoping we get some documents. I hope we get a lot of fun stuff here because it's, we've already gotten hints of some fun stuff. I, I'm looking forward to seeing if we get some.

SPEAKER 1: More and this is your super bowl in a sense, to use, to use an analogy. It's a World Cup.

SPEAKER 5: It's more of a World Cup. You don't get, you don't get these every year. You get these every fall.

SPEAKER 1: That's right too.

SPEAKER 1: That's funny. Yeah, we'll call it the, the World Cup Of Hobby, litigation when a company files a lawsuit. What's, I mean, I, I know it is no one right answer. But generally, what's the initial cost of that? What's the, you know, price wise? What's that gonna cost out of that? You know, their co first just even to, to file that motion or file that legal action. What's that initial bare minimum? At the very least?

SPEAKER 5: It's, and so I've, I've, so for the last 15 years I've done plaintiffs work. So I've really focused on actually more than 15 years, but I've focused on plaintiffs work. So, and it's been on contingent fee work. So, actually, you know, the percentage, I, you know, I would only get paid if we won or settled the case and there would be a percentage out of the settlement.

SPEAKER 5: But before that, the first five or six years that I practiced, I was at a, a large defense firm and this is 99 to 2004, 2005, that time frame. And so to file a case to prepare a complaint, it was not unheard of to be, $20,000 at that time just to file a complaint.

SPEAKER 5: A simple complaint. You know, not looking at like these, these complaints, like the Fanatics complaint is like over, it's, it's almost 100 pages, although a lot of it's pictures, and then, you know, Panini complaints weren't sure either. So if I had to guess, I mean, you're probably closer to $50,000 for those complaints.

SPEAKER 5: And then, the real expense in lawsuits comes with the documents, the exchanges and documents because you'll, you want lawyers to look at every document before, they go to the other side and lawyers aren't cheap.

SPEAKER 5: Antitrust lawsuits are some of the most expensive lawsuits that are out there. I've been lucky to be involved in Antitrust lawsuits as a defense attorney and as a plaintiff's attorney and as a defense attorney, I mean, there were, the two cases that we had, we had 10, 11, 12 associates looking at every document that this company basically ever had.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, the bills were, you know, hundreds or two, hundreds of thousands of dollars a month for cases like that. So they get very expensive, very quickly. But when you have such high stakes, in, as are in these cases, it's, you know, it seems like a lot but as for what could happen to these companies afterwards, it's really not all that, all that much for the companies.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. And you're talking about companies that have millions, if not billions of dollars, especially, in Fanatics case. So, well, $20,000 is, is a lot of money. It may not be as much to them as it is to us or me. And you.

SPEAKER 5: So especially, especially with with the Antitrust lawsuit. Panini is asking for, you know, a couple of things they're asking for Fanatics to, you know, if, if it is found that Fanatics is an unlawful monopoly.

SPEAKER 5: Panini wants the judge to order Fanatics to spin tops out to get rid of tops and instead have tops be a separate company and they're also asking for Fanatics to spin out a distributor that they just bought. So in the case that you're losing hundreds of millions of dollars of future revenue because of a court order. Yeah, 20 to $50,000 or even, you know, $10 million is worth 10 to defend your business lines.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, and listen to you too. I think one thing, you know, you've heard it, I'm sure as well there were different days some months back when you know, they, you, you heard whispers that the sale of Panini was imminent, the Fanatics or it had already happened.

SPEAKER 1: They just haven't announced it. I think what, what you said with the legal documents, what it has proven is there was at least dialogues between those two parties about having that be the case. It didn't, didn't come to fruition.

SPEAKER 1: And it's, as you said, with Fanatics, they, they're kind of countersuing saying that Panini kinda dr them along and cost them money, you know, fueling that process. So that was on the table as far as a sale of, of Panini to Fanatics.

SPEAKER 1: It didn't happen, probably not gonna happen now, at least, in the, in the first, you know, near future, it may happen down the line, especially depending on how these things shake out you, you know, this anti trusts, they're saying it almost like it's gonna be a future.

SPEAKER 1: Can you sue something? Can you sue in a court of law for something that hasn't, like, officially happened yet where maybe the tea leaves are reading that way. But we, we're not there yet. Can you, can you file a lawsuit for something that really hasn't actually happened yet?

SPEAKER 5: For Antitrust? You can explicitly do that. It's not just a lawsuit that you can have for a current unlawful monopoly, but you can have for, in intent to have a monopoly. So at least for that specific statute.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah, it specifically contemplates future monopolies it's more difficult, obviously, because the future, you don't, nobody knows what the future holds. But, but it is possible but it's funny that you, said that, you know, everybody, you know, had heard the rumors about a sale being imminent or the talks or whatever going on.

SPEAKER 5: It was at the, I think it was the Atlantic City National. That seemed to be the one rumor. Everybody said that they were just waiting to announce, they're just any day now, any day now they're gonna announce it.

SPEAKER 5: And I'm not sure you know what they're talking about, but the complaint that Fanatics filed against Panini, it didn't mention a buyout of Panini. It was more of a buyout of the exclusive licenses.

SPEAKER 5: And I had thought until then, like you, I thought that the companies were talking about tops buying fan, oh, sorry, Fanatics buying Panini. That's really what I thought had happened. So the fact that the complaint doesn't mention that it was, you know, new information to me.

SPEAKER 5: Doesn't mean they didn't talk about that. You know, everyone writes the complaint to say whatever they wanted to say. But that, that was news to me.

SPEAKER 1: What, I mean, like you mentioned, there's sort of three lawsuits here. You, you, you got the initial one with the employees jumping ship and going to Fanatics.

SPEAKER 1: Then you got, you know, Panini with the, the Antitrust. Then you got Fanatics firing back with, you know, what, whatever you, how you would title it with them, costing them money and in the process, I mean, you know, I know you read all these documents, you obviously gonna understand them better than someone who's not, in, in the legal profession. Which one of these three, in your professional opinion?

SPEAKER 1: Do you think holds the most water, at least on paper if you will?

SPEAKER 5: It's really difficult to tell. I think the, because each, each of the cases, they're brand new, you really only in a complaint need to put enough information, in the complaint to get to a pass the motion to dismiss. You don't actually have to show all your evidence.

SPEAKER 5: So it's, at this point, I think it's too difficult to tell. I think the Panini lawsuit about the theft of employees.

SPEAKER 5: I think that's a hard one because they're alleging that there is like a theft of trade secrets or there's kind of hinting that there's like trade secrets or confidential information went from Panini the Fanatics and was being used and, but they don't give any specifics about it and, you know, we've all collected cards for a long time and it's hard to, you know, see what the trade secrets are.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, obviously, like customer lists or pricing information that could be, you know, some type of trade secrets, but without any real meat on the bone for what the trade secrets are. It's really difficult to assess that case, for the Antitrust lawsuit.

SPEAKER 5: That's, you know, that's, I think that's a tough one too for Panini, because they are the exclusive licenses and have been for a long time for the NFL and the NBA. So it's kind of hypocritical, for them to bring that lawsuit and then the new lawsuit brought by Fanatics against tops.

SPEAKER 5: I mean, it's, you know, 60 some pages of allegations of 30 pages of, pictures that go with it. There's so many things going back and forth. I really want to see what Panini response is to that one too because that one could just boil down to what he said, she said. And then in that case, it goes down to a jury.

SPEAKER 5: And what does a jury think because a lot of the allegations in that Fanatics lawsuit were, hey, you know, we're actually, you know, would be good, for the market because Panini has made all these mistakes. They've done all these things. They've made cards more expensive, they made poor quality and we would do the opposite.

SPEAKER 5: Well, you know, it opens the door for Panini to come back and say, really, ok, well, here's a laundry list of where you guys have done that or here's how we're better than that. So I would say, looking at all these, you can't find a clear winner. What you can say is these are gonna be very expensive lawsuits for both sides with, both sides fighting these issues out.

SPEAKER 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth. Paul, you can tell me I'm wrong, but kind of hearing what you said. It sounds like in your legal opinion, the, the theft of employees and, or intellectual service services or properties might be the weakest of the three. I asked you kind of which one was the, the strongest one? Do you agree with that? It is.

SPEAKER 5: But that's just because I think didn't, they don't need to, they don't need to, they kind of need to, but they don't need to say exactly what was stolen. They just say stuff is stolen. So, without knowing what that stuff is, it's hard to really assess it.

SPEAKER 5: But, but because of that, I think, yes, that is the weakest one because had I drift drafted that complaint, I would have said, for example, we have a trade secret that covers how we cleared checks or, or whatever it is, and this employee who was in charge of this went over to that company and what do you know, they started clearing checks in the same way, know I would have put something like that in there and there was nothing there.

SPEAKER 5: So without that, it seems, you know, maybe it's there, but since it's not there, I can only assess that I would have put it there if you didn't put it there, maybe there's a reason you didn't. So, I would say that's probably the weakest.

SPEAKER 1: Is you think it, I mean, again, it's all speculation.

SPEAKER 1: You think it's not there because maybe they, they don't have, it's, it's more sour grapes that you took some of our folks and, you know, or you think they're trying to, can they, can they hold that information back and then only put it out there when it's, it's time to fire it out there. I, I think.

SPEAKER 5: It's more of, I think it's more of the latter. I think it's more of we don't need to. I mean, you know, you want to hold back some information from the other side, you know, once you've shown them all your evidence, they've got $1000 and our attorneys on the other side that could spend two years tearing it apart.

SPEAKER 5: So hold some things back. So I don't think it's, necessary a sour grapes. I think it's, if there are trade secrets, they don't need to show them right now. Hold on to them, you know, don't show them just yet.

SPEAKER 1: All right. I gotta ask you. I mean, it's the, you know, I mean, why do you think this, again, it's all speculation?

SPEAKER 1: I mean, you think this, you know, again, like you said, you got three parts, they're not even in the same necessarily, court, they sort of overlap I mean, you think this gets, you know, goes to a, a courtroom or how do you think this thing ultimately shakes out?

SPEAKER 5: I think we're gonna have multiple battles in multiple courts and that will ultimately drive the parties to settle the case confidentially and we will never know what happened.

SPEAKER 5: I think, you know, there is a chance that, you know, with the employee stealing case. I think Fanatics could possibly get an early win in that case, which would require Panini to refile the case.

SPEAKER 5: I could see that happening and then maybe need to be like, oh, ok, maybe we should talk and then I could also see in some of the other cases that, well, this case will continue.

SPEAKER 5: And because of that, it's gonna be expensive. So I think ultimately we're going to see battles in all three cases which will ultimately lead the parties to sit down and say, hey, we're spending millions of dollars in these lawsuits.

SPEAKER 5: Let's get back to the table. Let's see if we can't do something and that might be what's really going on behind, you know, the closed doors, you know, maybe the price that Panini wanted for the buyout of their exclusive licenses wasn't high enough. So let's bring a lawsuit and make them pay money. So they'll offer us more.

SPEAKER 5: And maybe Fanatics coming back is, you know, what? You're gonna start spending some money now defending our lawsuit too. So our price that we had for your exclusive licenses was more accurate. So, it's, it could, all these lawsuits could really just be negotiate, you know, negotiations taking place in the courtroom rather than the, rather than the boardroom.

SPEAKER 1: So you, you're, you're saying if I, I heard you right. And I thought about this too. It's funny that in a sense these, these filings might be the fuel that gets a transaction done where Fanatics could acquire that licensing ahead of schedule.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah, I, I think that's the most likely result and then the case, you know, will settle confidentially. We won't know who got paid, we won't know who paid more, who paid less or what. And we'll just see that the, the future of the hobby is gonna be Fanatics for a while.

SPEAKER 1: As someone that's, again in, in the legal, does that scare you? That one company has that much power, in, in the industry slash hobby?

SPEAKER 5: It, it, we're used to it. I mean, again, like I said, you know, we grew up, you know, you know, I don't know when you started collecting but in the eighties, I mean, it was just the, the ability. Ok, we're out of tops today. Ok.

SPEAKER 5: Let's go get some, you know, I mean, it was, you always had other stuff and everybody had a favorite manufacturer and everybody, you know, every once in a while you'd go through other product lines, you get other cards. So I liked, I liked that world better, you know, I liked it when there were a lot more manufacturers that are out there.

SPEAKER 5: But really, we've been under the exclusive line for the last 10 years now. So, you know, yes, people will complain, about what, you know, about everything that's going on. But it, it doesn't really scare me, for the hobby. It's just continuation of, of how it was.

SPEAKER 5: And, I mean, if you look back in the, you know, eighties when everybody else, when everybody had a license that was the junk wax era, you know, kinda how the hobby got set back for 15 years and, you know, pushed back the, you know, now only coming up in the last 10 years to be where it is.

SPEAKER 5: So, you know, whether it's lots of licenses or only one licensee, you know, we, we'll al always find something to complain about. But, it doesn't scare me. It's just, just different things to collect.

SPEAKER 1: Does that, you know, listen, Fanatics is getting those licenses. It's just a, it's not a matter of, if it's just a matter of, of when. Now do you think once those exchange hands and they hold three of the four major sports you think that make you think more legal cases are, are on the horizon because of that or potentially less?

SPEAKER 5: I think it could be. I think it'll still be probably the same, leaf will still be out there. Upper deck will still be out there. Those are your two most litigious companies that are out there and even with the, you know, Fanatics out there owning a lot more of the IP, they'll have to enforce it.

SPEAKER 5: Sue counterfeiters, sue companies that are infringing their things. So I don't think it'll drastically change the amount of litigation that's there. I, I think it'll, you know, again, upper de le file more lawsuits than anybody else. So they, they, they're, as long as they're separate, we'll always have something to collect.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. So you're, you're still gonna be busy. Don't, don't worry, you're not going, you're not going, anywhere. Now, sometimes I gotta ask you this. Sometimes I have people, guests on this show that are involved in some of these companies that, are involved in this litigation and they will always tell me John, I, I know you want to ask but unfortunately I can't discuss it.

SPEAKER 1: It's an ongoing legal matter how accurate. I'm not, I'm not saying someone's lying or if you're calling them, how accurate is that statement that they can't say anything whatsoever.

SPEAKER 5: They can say whatever they want, but they shouldn't say anything as, as a lawyer. You know, I always tell, you know, clients that, you know, again, it's your case, you're free to say whatever you want about it. But remember there's $1000 an hour attorney, not 10 on the other side, who's gonna take every single word that you say and twist it up against you.

SPEAKER 5: So don't say anything. Let's, you know, no matter what happens in, the public with the case that has no effect on what actually happens in the lawsuit, only the court filings are gonna be what wins the case in the lawsuit. So don't say anything about it.

SPEAKER 5: So, as a lawyer, that's exactly what I would tell. My clients don't talk about anything. You're not gonna help the case case. You can only hurt the case. Now, as a collector and as somebody who likes looking at the lawsuits from the outside, I want more Brian Gray, I want more people talking about the lawsuits and being open about it.

SPEAKER 5: Even though, you know, if I was his lawyer, it, it would scare me to death just like, you know, I mean, I love Brian but you never know what he's gonna say.

SPEAKER 5: So, as a lawyer, you would hate that, but as someone watching the lawsuits, I love it. I love to see his reasoning and why he's doing everything.

SPEAKER 5: And it's, you know, it's, it's refreshing to see because you're right. Most times you're gonna get, I can't talk about it. It's ongoing litigation. We don't talk about it.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, that's, that's what I get. I always just wondered how much it, like, I know it's, they're not just making that up, it's gonna, you know, I just wonder how accurate, but like you said, it's kind of like the Miranda rights. You have the right to remain silent. But anything you can say, can be used against you.

SPEAKER 1: So if they go on a podcast and slip up and say something that, paints them in a bad light or, or can be used for the other side to say, see, here's what we're talking about. It makes better sense for them to just, hey, sorry John, can't go there type of deal. I just wondered, you know, were they, did they say that themselves or they really, is somebody really saying, hey, do yourself a favor.

SPEAKER 5: Their lawyers told them that their lawyers do not. I see you're going on a podcast and I do not talk about this.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense and I, and I get it and I'm obviously respectful of that fact. So, and then as you know, there's ways of asking questions without asking the, the exact, question and sometimes you get an answer.

SPEAKER 1: Sometimes you don't, listen, I appreciate you. You coming on glad to have you on sharing a lot of that insight that for someone like myself who, who was a wannabe lawyer back in eighth grade, but didn't didn't do it to fill in a lot of that info.

SPEAKER 1: And I think you know, for anyone like I'm gonna, I'm gonna plug your, your, your, you know, your, your Twitter at Paul underscore, let's go. You break it down like no one, nobody's business, no one, no one does it better. And so, you know, again, thank you for coming on and, and filling in some of those blanks, even given opinions.

SPEAKER 1: Right? Some people are afraid to, like, they just kind of want to play it down the middle. But you give your artist assessment, where can people find those artist assessments and you the way you do break it down for, for current cases, and future ones that we're gonna have as well.

SPEAKER 5: Yeah. No, just, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm always on Twitter at Paul underscore Lesko. So feel free to check it out there. And if you have questions on cases, I try to respond to people because I figure if I'm not explaining something so that everybody can understand it.

SPEAKER 5: I'm failing as a lawyer and really by talking to people on Twitter and explaining cases, it's actually practice for me being a lawyer so that I can get better explaining my cases to a jury.

SPEAKER 1: Now, I got it one last question. How often does someone like DM you or email you and like we like personal like, hey, I got, do I have a case here? Like their own, their own legal processes? Does that happen a lot.

SPEAKER 5: It, it does, it does happen a lot and I always have to, you know, start off with the, you know, with the beginning that, you know, hey, you know, I, I, I'm very picky when it comes to my cases. I've rejected my career. 99% of the cases that come to me. So, you know, you can, we, we can ask and we could talk about it, but most likely I'll be referring you to another attorney.

SPEAKER 1: So, yeah, that's what it's like any profession, what, you know, doctors have their friends. Hey, I got this, you know, bump on my elbow, it's getting bigger, you know, and like III, I imagine it is the same way, in, in the, in the lawyer, you know, business that, everyone wants a, you know, hey, what do you think or, you know, you want to take this or, you know, that sort of thing?

SPEAKER 5: So the, the easiest are the ones when it's outside my specialty. Like, you know, I've got, you know, I've been arrested for this. Can you help me? I'm like, no, I can't, I don't know anything about the criminal law at all.

SPEAKER 1: Well, oh, well, Paul, what's again, man, I, I appreciate you coming on and we'd love to have you back, maybe kind of follow up, with, with, with some of these cases as they develop and, change and things kind of, shake out and, like you said, there's probably always gonna, you know, 10 or 20 that we, you know, we, we all know about the big one and then there's the 19 other ones.

SPEAKER 1: We, we've either forgot about when the next shoe falls and, and that sort of thing. So I love to have you back and, I would.

SPEAKER 5: Say, what do we do? We didn't even talk about, you know, the Larkana case or the you know, bang bros case or, I mean, there's so many other cases that we've forgotten about because the two big guys.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, we'll have to, we'll have to do maybe in a, you know, 4 to 5 weeks, we'll do a, a non Panini fanatic you know, podcast.

SPEAKER 1: So, thanks Paul. Appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER 1: Awesome having Paul finally on the show. I know we really hit the Fanatics Panini case hard, but I also wanted to talk about Paul and his collection and how he got into what he's doing. I, I think that backstory was important.

SPEAKER 1: So we didn't get to some of the other cases. But we're gonna have him back. So, we'll have to do, when he comes back, we'll have to do a non Fanatics Panini discussion unless something has changed by then, which I imagine probably has.

SPEAKER 1: So we, well, when he comes back, we'll update that case but, and sort of update cases we didn't get to talk about, on today's episode. So, glad that Paul is willing to come back. And so we'll revisit with him, here, probably sooner than later. Are you a new sports cards collector or is someone returning to the hobby?

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SPEAKER 10: That's a wrap for this week. Huge thanks to you, the listeners out there because without you, there is no ice.

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