Ep.215 w/ Clemente Lisi-World Cup Wrap Up & Hobby Impact

Transcript

to have my next guest back on Sports Carnation again on the sports card show

shop guest line uh recently back from

Qatar for the from the World Cup and uh Professor Clemente Lisi welcome thanks

for having me back and happy New Year yes happy New Year uh I guess we'll start off with you know uh first time

the cup was held there your first time uh in the country of uh Qatar you know

obviously I've never been there probably most people listening uh to this episode uh probably haven't been there kind of

your observations your thoughts of of of the country and how they hosted the

World Cup right well as your listeners know on the eve of the World Cup there was a lot of discussion about you know

can Qatar Host this thing it's a very small country it's about the size of Connecticut it was all these issues

regarding uh migrant workers in the building of stadiums um lgbtq rights all this stuff we all

know about this um I was there for the final week of the World Cup and I watched the first three weeks on television you know on Fox

um and they did an extraordinary job and you know it's not surprising because countries that host the World Cup spend

tens of millions hundreds of millions in this case billions of dollars and Qatar basically built something out of nothing

I I often um compared to Las Vegas they built something out of the desert they built stadiums they built skyscrapers

they built a subway line two years ago so they basically built infrastructure just for this tournament

um and it was a pretty amazing experience I think if you watched it on TV you got that impression but just being there on the ground and seeing all

these modern facilities and these amazing stadiums it's it's it was a sight to behold and I will say I think

in the future guitar will host probably summer olympics that wouldn't surprise me on other major events because they

have the infrastructure in place to do so uh correct me if I'm wrong this you said

this is your your fourth world cup obviously uh it's it was held at a

different time of the year because of of the heat Factor was it any different could you tell like

or if you didn't know what what calendar month you're in you wouldn't you wouldn't know any different yeah look it

impacted us here because we're watching the NFL and watching the World Cup we're watching World Cup games on Thanksgiving

weekend I mean that was weird I will say in hindsight it was pretty amazing to be able to do that over the four day

Thanksgiving weekend my daughter and I we watched almost every game because the TV was just on Non-Stop and if you look

at Fox's ratings for the US England game it was the highest rated uh US men's game ever but it also didn't hurt

football and the other events because I think people just used it as an opportunity especially on the East Coast it's cold people have nowhere to go

they're watching um being Qatar was was different because

it's a it's a majority Muslim Nation so you walk around and there are no

Christmas decorations it was 85 Degrees I felt like I took an airplane from New York and went to June or July right it

was like it was it was almost like I traveled I just threw a space but time and so being there I felt like it was

July it was really weird for that week and to be honest it was so cold in New York that I was happy actually happy not

to be here um it was like in the 20s I think um so being there was was being like in

a bit of a Time Warp so for that week I was there it felt really weird I also at the back of my mind knew I had to do

some Christmas shopping so luckily I did a little bit of that in Qatar because aside from all the stadiums they built

there's a lot of shopping malls and the reason for that is because it's so hot there in the summer it's like 105 degrees people have to be inside and so

they built this enormous shopping centers and it was you know it was a lot of fun um to walk around and see

different things um so I did a little Christmas shopping and I also got to enjoy the warm weather which was nice

very very cool and yeah it was definitely warmer there than uh in in New York state and especially here in

Syracuse even so uh which is usually colder than my hometown of Brooklyn uh

you know you know let's let's start with the final right arguably uh many have said uh you know one of the greatest

finals some have actually just went there and said hey this is the greatest Final in World Cup uh history definitely

had uh story lines right and Bape versus Messi France trying to repeat Messi

trying to get his first uh ever World Cup uh after saying it would be his last

one that he would play in win or lose and here he is in the final you got all

these story lines I watched the game uh wasn't the only uh match I watched but

obviously the the last one because it was the the final and from an amateur

soccer fan I'll call myself that especially compared to you so it was

exciting you know there was there was scoring uh there was you know

the edge of your seat moments and uh all that stuff I mean do you agree with that

you know as being there in person I'm watching in my living room obviously you're there in the stands you know your

assessment of the final do you agree with most of the the pundits that it was

the greatest uh I mean you you wrote probably the preeminent book on World

Cup history so you you have uh you know you have some uh Credence here I mean

what what's your assessment compared to what others are are chiming in with no I

have to say that if it's not number one it's it's the top two or three um I think it's the number one and all the

story lines you mentioned were all true and oftentimes as you know whether it's a World Cup final or a Super Bowl or

whatever there's a lot of build up to that and oftentimes the game doesn't live up to the hype in this case I think

it lived up to the hype and then some which was pretty amazing and the Messi mbappe fight ended up being a real thing

because Messi scored two goals and Bobby scored a hat-trick if someone had told me on the eve of the game that mbappe

would score three goals and they would lose I'd tell you well that's what would have to happen for that to be the case

and it was back and forth the first half as you recall was all Argentina

and it was done and I thought okay they're going to score third in the second half and then put the game away

and you know what it wouldn't have been the great final but it would have been a coronation for Messi which I think a lot of neutrals

we're looking for and and in terms of Journalism as a storyline it was a great story it's like that doesn't only does

he win the world cup at equal Maradona but he becomes the goat which is what people were like kind of like that Tom

Brady Super Bowl from a few years back it's like if he wins this he surpasses Montana he's the ghost okay

and he did it but in such dramatic style a 3-3 game they go to penalties I mean

France comes back Bobby scores two goals in two minutes you know Messi scores and extra time and

Bobby scores the penalty kick again I mean you couldn't ask for a better game and you know being in the stands was

pretty exciting I happened to be sitting in an area of mostly French journalists so they were not that happy but but just

the stadium was about 85 90 Argentina um because people from Argentina have

flown there but a lot of mutual fans a lot of the locals a lot of people in the Middle East they love that because

Messi's a global icon and they were cheering for Messi and in the end they got I think the final that that the

people had dreamed of I will say though a kudos to mbappe at 24 years old he's

the future of this Sport and he's already won one World Cup I can see him winning another one or two in the future

yeah all great points and like you said I mean you couldn't you couldn't have scripted this it was like almost like a

Disney movie but it was real right not you know no credits at the at the end this is this is real life I mean talk

about the significance you know to Messi like I said this will be at least this

is what he said it will be his last uh World Cup and and you know you you know

I know it's not on the same part you know but like I'm a Steeler fan so it

reminds me of when Jerome Bettis announced that this season you know was going to be his one it was going to be

his last and the Steelers win the Super Bowl and they came very close to not having that happen

um just talk about the significance of you know him announcing that it would be

his last World Cup and and he did that before they even knew they were actually in the finals so this wasn't like

tomorrow is going to be my last uh appearance you know he announced that before the tournament even started but

the significance of it being his last one and winning it in in that style and

like you said a great matchup uh with probably the next guy uh the the face of

of the sport yeah no totally it was it was a Messi's Last Dance it was do or die and that put more pressure on the

team if you recall they lost their opener to Saudi Arabia and so yeah from

that point on Argentina was playing elimination round even though they were in the group stage still they had to win all the games and you know they did it

and they it came close against the Netherlands and the quarterfinals again they gave up a two-goal lead they went

on penalties and the final the same thing so they they couldn't maintain a lead But ultimately Messi came through

he showed the quality you know at 35 years old that's that's pretty old for a soccer player and to to to want him to

come back at age 39 in four years it's it's really a big amount in the climb it

if you saw Ronaldo Cristiano Ronaldo at the World Cup he's 37 38 8 and at one

point he got benched during the tournament because he can't do the full 90. he just can't

um what's going to happen Argentina though the interesting thing is repeating as Champion is extremely difficult France tried it it didn't work

the last team to do that was 1962 when Brazil went back to back with Pele right

so it's that difficult to do um and Pele passed away recently we'll talk about that in a bit but yeah so

it's very difficult to do and what will happen now I think is that it's what's next is who's the next Messi who will be

the number 10 for Argentina that you know keeps this going because you know fans want to win let's not forget that

there's a 34-year gap 36-year gap between maradona's World Cup and this

world cup so World Cups are hard to win it happen once every four years and you could be in the wilderness for for

decades before you win it again um I know that I know the champagne is still going and the confetti's probably

hasn't been cleaned up yet and Argentina fans are probably thinking why are you talking about this you know because Messi said he's going to play with the

team in the future just not the World Cup because that's four years from now but Argentina has lots of other tournaments

they took a look forward to including Copa America which is a South American Championship which they won last year

and will happen again in two years um it's kind of a shame because um at 39

years old I don't see MSC continuing but it would be a shame because the US will be hosting the World Cup in 2026 and

seeing here would have been pretty amazing but um you just never know though I mean Tom Brady is still here so

you just don't know in soccer it's very difficult to be able to keep that pace and Rhythm at 40 years old when you're

playing against Defenders or 22. so I was gonna that was my next question Clemente I know what he said and we've

you know it's happened in other sports right someone retires and then talk about Brady he did

that right he retired you think there's any you you think there's any chance you

know messy you know goes against what you know comes back and said listen we're the

we're the defending World Cup champions I gotta for my country I gotta at least

give my best effort and and defend you think you think we'll see him in 2026

here in in North America I think I think it's 50 50. I think there's a few

pressures here the pressure from sponsors and from you know just just the

whole marketing machine that demands that you have a a player of that caliber on the field but also his desire I mean

I always say when I see it I mentioned Tom Brady or other quarterbacks or other athletes when they when they win

something and they're at 40 or 35 I I always say look I I quit at the top I

would leave now but the desire to keep going I get that like you know the the fact that you want to go to work I get

that motivation and you know I don't say never I think Messi at 39 years old if there is no air

there's no somebody else to fill his shoes if he tells the coach look I want to come back would you ever say no to

Messina even if he's off the bench you'd keep him so I I think it's 50 50. you

never know yeah all right we you know we got to talk about the United States uh performance

in the tournament they got you know they got out of the the group uh stage Into The Knockout round you know they didn't

score a lot of goals they played some tie games uh played a great match against England that uh ended in a in a

zero zero tie uh as a as a United States citizen and residents your and soccer

expert I mean uh what's your assessment of their performance overall look you

know it's it's the odd thing with the United States is that if they get knocked out in the group stage it's a

disappointment and if they reach the quarterfinals it's a success so the round of 16 which is where they

typically get eliminated which is happening at the Netherlands is kind of an in-between Zone and so it was a great

world cup look in the group stage I know it was very tactical they scored very few goals but it was edge of your seat

every one of those games and you know the real the big mistake they made was was they couldn't get a win in the first

game against Wales which they deserved right the England game looked zero zero against England you know and England has

still never beating the United States of the World Cup so for all the history and tradition that England has

when they face the us there it's always a tough game and that was a fun game that was a day after Thanksgiving uh I

went to a sports bar on Long Island and uh even people who never watched soccer

were in that place packed at like two o'clock on a Friday you know so it was fun to see people getting into the game

into the sport and the US had held their heads high and then the Iran game was do or die and look the Christian pulse that

came through we scored that goal they injured himself on the goal the U.S hung on and against the Netherlands they

could have they could have easily even won that game but they were in that game you can tell the difference between the

European power and the U.S which was the US is very naive defensively they left

too much space in the back and of course A Team like that is going to counter attack and score on you

um so the Legacy here of this when we think back to this world cup and think about the United States I think we're

going to think of it as a stepping stone to 2026 because the United States was

average age was 24 years old okay they were the second youngest team at the tournament this is all to build for the

next World Cup which is a long time from now but but World Cups work in cycles and so these guys are going to be around

for the next one and maybe even 20 30. and you have to sort of build team unity of course for those of listening

listening and know a little bit about what's happening the United States is that team is a little bit of a in a bit

of a mess right now because the coach has not has had his contract renewed he's all these past allegations

regarding domestic violence how that all pans out we don't know but either Greg

berhalter will get rehired or they'll hire another coach but and that that person will have four years to build but

this is all about building the next World Cup and also I think while you're building your growing

audience and I think the World Cup there are people who came up to me family members friends

um friends of mine who have kids who said to me my kid really got into the World Cup we watched so many games we never watched so many and I think that

that that has a lingering effect that has a way of growing the support in this country which you know we still talk

about that but we talk about the United States and soccer it's always about building the game and making it more

mainstream and I think this world cup went a long way doing that yeah they definitely did you know they

didn't embarrass themselves and like you said it's gonna uh some of the World Cup will be on U.S soil in 2026 and so

there'll be a lot of anticipation uh you know based on this performance getting out of the group stage and now being one

of the host uh countries there'll be a lot of anticipation to see you know

maybe they can go uh even a little bit uh uh further you mentioned some of the

coaching uh you know controversy uh if you will be interesting to see you know

how that sort of uh plays itself out uh I would hope uh whatever the outcome is

it sort of gets resolved kind of quickly so they can you know be on uh you know

be a little more stable going into a home World Cup if you will rather than

sort a lot of things up in the air or a new coach late with uh less time to

prepare for that kind of tournament so a lot of storylines even uh especially on

the on the U.S front going into the the next uh uh World Cup uh my son you know

yeah uh who watched a lot of it along with me knowing that it's going to be uh

in North America and I know uh I believe uh some games in Toronto uh New Yorker

from that mistaken you know he's expressed an interest they're like hey can you think we can go and uh I I said

we'll see we got we got a little bit of time but uh you know speaking of you know that uh are tickets tough to like

how tough of a ticket was it to go to guitar to see it and how tough of a

ticket might it be here uh in 2026 for those thinking about attending yeah you

know the it's interesting question so yeah the World Cup tickets go on sale about a year before the World Cup because at that point you'll know most

the teams that qualified um and they'll do the World Cup draw and then they'll they'll put different groups in different cities and you'll

know New York is definitely one of the Cities that's hosting the World Cup actually New York Los Angeles and Dallas

are all pretty much competing for the final I should mention that the US will co-host the world cup with Canada Mexico

so there'll be games in those countries um so what happens is is about a year before the World Cup tickets go on sale

and they were pretty online pre-sale um and you're buying tickets to the group stage you know what ends up

happening is if you buy a block of tickets for the group stage you're pretty much married to the team that ends up winning the

group so if your team doesn't win the group now you have all these tickets you don't want and you can resell them on

their platforms the the big issue with Qatar was one they had very few hotels two was very far away very expensive to

fly there so a lot of people didn't go even though I will admit a lot of argentines were there and a lot of

Americans went there earlier in the tournament I mean for the US games they were you know from what I read and saw

there were a lot of Americans there um and a lot of people you know from Europe that went as well now there

weren't as many going from Europe but even though they were closer because like I said it's a very expensive but there were also a lot of fake tickets

and scalpers and there were all kinds of warnings like if some guy on Twitter says I have three tickets just DM me and

send me the money you know don't do that you know it's it's one of those things where you have to go on the FIFA website and you can buy and sell your own

tickets and I will say this all the tickets it was all paperless it was all phones I know people are into grading

tickets that wasn't happening at this world cup it was the first World Cup like it was the first World Cup I can remember where there was no paper now I

don't know if you print your ticket out if that counts as a real ticket but it's not it's not you know it's not the real

ticket you would walk in there with your phone and it would just beep your phone um and so yeah so for those people who

are interested in the World Cup in 2026 I have lots of people I know were like hey this world cup in Boston it's in New

York it's in Miami I want to go I'm like look slow down it's way ahead of time

but the resale you know you can go to Stubhub and buy tickets too and the resale on like the final for example

tickets are going for like four or five thousand dollars now World Cup tickets in general are not that expensive if you

want to go to a regular World Cup game you can go for 80 or 100 it's just about

part of gobbling them up fast enough and then when you want to resell them that's where the money is made and of course

you know when you're selling tickets months in advance to games and The Knockout stage you don't even know what

teams are there they're fairly cheap because you're buying just like these people I know who say look I'm gonna go

to the World Cup final I don't care who's playing in it it's the final or I want to go to the quarterfinals because

heck it's still the quarterfinal World Cup I want to go once the teams start

populating the bracket and you're getting close to the nitty-gritty then everyone's paying attention and that's

when the prices go up but stay tuned I mean trust me when tickets go on sale in this country in a few

years look they'll they'll they'll sell because yeah it still holds the record

back in 94 for the most tickets ever sold at a World Cup I mean they were empty seats in Qatar not not for the

elimination in the group stage there were some empty seats in the U.S they won't be because the US is a huge soccer

Market more than people think and there's so many nationalities here that everyone has a rooting interest I always

tell people if you're unable to go to a World Cup the second best thing is to go to a major American city and watch the

World Cup at a bar because everyone from around the world is there he had no doubt I want to follow up a

question you mentioned that it basically uh was ticketless everything was you

know with the the barcodes on your phone right now that that even even in other

sports football baseball uh it's going that way but one thing if if something

significant happens during the game you can go to the box office and actually request a a hard copy ticket uh of your

of your seats um do you know you know ticket grading has become a a thing here in the last

year or two uh more it's been it's been a thing even before that but it's gotten more uh sort of popular do you know was

that was that possible in Qatar could you go to the box office there and say

hey I know I don't have the hard copy tickets but I would like to have them as

a Memento of of being here do you know if that was you know I don't know if you're doing that I don't know if you

can get it printed out but I do know that the Qatari citizens had the paper option because I did see locals with

tickets actually after the final was over amid all the hoopla you know hours after the game was over I made my way

out of the stadium to the subway station the metro and there was a guy standing there with a sign a

homemade sign that said like please give me your World Cup tickets for my collection

you know I wish I had time to talk to this guy because I you know it was so crowded everyone was moving quickly and

I thought oh there's a guy who collects tickets and he's here he he might not have gone to the game but he wants a

stub right and you know interesting to see if these pop up on eBay or somewhere else but I think there's a lot less of

them than normal and of course for the final itself there's very few of them I

will admit that as a member of the press we were forced to print out a paper

ticket and so I have a paper ticket I have paper tickets from all of my World Cup finals because the media gets a

ticket it's called the media ticket it looks just like a regular thing um I've never gotten that graded you

know I will admit and I'll make a confession here that amid all this grading ticket grading hoopla I've kind

of ignored it but I feel like I can't ignore it now a lot of people are talking about it there's some value in it and I get look if you're collecting

Super Bowl tickets some of them are beautiful like that you know yeah World Cup tickets I have and have seen have

have very little on them you know so they're not so pretty but I think there was a there is a market for it and like

I said there was this guy outside the stadium looking for stubs which makes me think that there might have been some out there

yeah and no doubt like we talked about it kind of when we first uh opened up uh

the the conversation arguably one of the greatest World Cup finals Messi's first

ever right so the significance of a graded ticket stub for that event is you

know for people who are into that sort of thing that's going to be a definitely a highly sought after uh collectible in

that space so uh that's kind of why I asked if if you know I know here uh in

the states with NFL MLB NHL even if you don't even if you have like the the

ticket on your phone which is what most of the you know 80 or whatever high

percent you can request if you so desire a hard copy ticket before you uh go home

for the night so I just was one that's why I asked that uh uh question so uh

you know a lot of upsets a lot upsets in this in this tournament you had uh you

talked about one right off the bat right in Saudi Arabia two Argentina one uh

Japan beat Germany shut them out even and South Korea beat Portugal and

Portugal wound up having a pretty good run uh in the end uh

would you know again would you did the did the upsets surprise you as a soccer

guy or do you think that the the parodies may be better than it's ever been before so while they're they're

upsets and paper you know just some of those teams you don't expect to win those games uh they're they're

traditionally better now how would you assess I agree I agree with that I think you know it's not like if you read my

book you know you go back a few decades it was hard to scout teams now there are no secrets everyone's got internet

television technology there's nothing Japan is doing that we don't know about and vice versa and so these teams are

getting better while some of the European teams like Germany are still sort of in transition you didn't mention the what was the

biggest upset really was was Morocco reaching the semi-finals and getting the fourth place which was fun and I will

say after Qatar crashed out early the locals the people in that part of the world all rallied around the Arab nation

and it was fun to watch because when I was there Morocco was in the semi-finals and ended up finishing fourth which you

know was an amazing achievement for them and there were so many Moroccan fans but I couldn't tell if they were from Morocco or if they were just locals who

had taken on the Morocco you know it became like kind of like the George Mason of 15 years ago they got far you

know and they they you know it's hard for one of those teams to win the World

Cup there was at no point even after they beat Portugal and they got the semi-final there was no point that I

think Morocco will win the world cup and part of me did not want them to reach the final because I did want France

Argentina I wanted the Clash of Titans I wanted that my fear was that if a Morocco left final or Croatia that it

would maybe not create that that tension which we ultimately witnessed um but yeah it's I think it's it's much

harder for these teams to win it but I will say in four years from now the World Cup will go from 32 teams to 48

teams so a lot more chance for other countries to get into the tournament and

I think upsets can happen especially in The Knockout round when you know one team versus another anything can

happen I think a lot of the European and South American teams the established Powers often underestimate these teams

one thing to really consider is that even a team like Morocco most of those guys play in Europe they play at the

highest level they're not playing like in the local League now in Saudi Arabia that was interesting they all their

players played in their domestic championship and that was a true upset now having said that what do we know

about the Saudi League well we don't know much but I will know I know this that Cristiano Ronaldo just signed the play there

for 200 million dollars for two years you know if you consider compare that to Aaron judge his contract is 200 million

dollars for like seven years tells you a little bit about how deep pocketed the Saudis are and for those of you

following the live golf thing these countries are trying through Sports

to show domination and because they have oil money they can do it so so the sort

of the pecking order of international sports but even soccer I think is is a little topsy-turvy so these upsets while

they were fun I think there'll be more in the future for sure yeah as as like you said there's film

there's scouting uh there's people doing uh the research and and analytics

coaches too yeah the coaching also the analytics now I mean all sports these

analytics people on staff who you know basically Moneyball created that for All Sports and everyone's doing that now so

yeah no doubt uh one last thing you know and I knew I knew it worked like this

before the World Cup but you know one of my things I don't like is you know the penalty kicks right there's a foul

somebody gets tripped or pushed or or tackled illegally and then like the best

player in the not the person who necessarily gets filed takes the penalty kick you know for Argentina was always

messy I I my the only thing I'd like to see and again it's not going to happen it's

just me ranting out out loud I I think it's kind of like basketball right you're driving to the hoop you get

fouled you go to the free throw you you take the two free throw shots I would like to see you know the guy who gets

filed have to take uh the penalty kick right they're it's going to be highly successful most likely anyway the goalie

is really uh most of the time guessing you know left or right and uh you know

even if he guesses right doesn't mean necessary he'll make the same anyway

um you know your thought your thoughts I mean you're more of a fan uh frankly than than I am and an expert uh you know

I just think like you get tackled you get fouled you should reap the rewards

of your efforts yet you know the best player comes in uh you know and and

takes you you you take the the you know you get you get the file and then your

teammate uh gets to gets to kick the ball uh you know what do you think of um

you know my am I nuts or what are your thoughts that's interesting it's interesting I mean oftentimes you have

players who are specialists at penalty kicks and you see that in the shootouts right they pick their the Five Guys they

think they could do better um I've never heard anybody actually say that the player that gets the foul

should take the kick and as much as I'm a purist and I hate changes not just the

soccer but in life I will admit your idea is a pretty interesting one to force the player who

got fouled to take it would be interesting because it would a little bit even out the playing field because

as as of right now 65 to 75 those kicks make it in so the goal is behind the the

percentage-wise he's at this Advantage even though we did see in the shootouts a team like Croatia was absolutely

amazing what they were able to do um not just here but even four years ago at the World Cup in Russia but I like

your idea and I've never had anyone actually throw it out there so I think it's interesting I mean will it happen

no because FIFA is so averse to changes also oftentimes your best player takes

the kick because they want to pad out their goals right I mean you know the fact that mbappe took all the kicks for

France you know that helped him be the tournament there's people have said to me well wouldn't it be interesting if

the penalty kicks they count obviously in the game if you score them but you don't count them in the top scorer list

that's interesting because that's almost like a free goal um that's why penalties matter so much

in during a game and that's why they review them now because players as you know in soccer they love to dive they

love to take a minimal contact and I will say at this world cup the referees are pretty good at clamping down on that

because it became ridiculous in the past and I think the only reason they brought

instant replay at the soccer was really to try to negotiate this penalty kick business which a lot of players

oftentimes on replay you know referee in real time can't often see it and then when you watch the replay you're like

wow that guy wasn't even touched and they got a penalty for that so you know people are always thinking about

Innovation thinking about how to make the game better so having said that you know but they're also averse the change

which is at least two you know because so many people around the world love the game the way it is at every you know we

did see at this world cup for example something that annoyed me was referees being told to clamp down on on time

wasting and as a result they were adding 10 minutes nine minutes to games which

you know if you watch the Premier League or MLS typically you get two or three minutes so all of a sudden you're up 1-0

and you think this game is pretty much over and the referee goes 10 minutes and now you have 10 more minutes and

oftentimes goals were scored in that time it made it for a more exciting tournament but I wasn't crazy about all

the time added on either because it you know I remember in the US Iran game that became extremely stressful at the end

when the US was hanging on to a 1-0 lead and they made the win and uh you know it

wasn't good for my heart but at the same time I get that that referees want to add time because you know basically in

soccer you play 90 minutes but if you count the actual minutes of play you're talking about 55 to 60 minutes so about

30 minutes of that is just nothing right in American Sports the clock stops

um there's been talk about that maybe maybe in soccer to stop the clock if the ball goes out of bounds or if the ball

or the guy's rolling around on the ground for 45 seconds why is the clock going here you know we're not you know

even if you try to add that time on you're never really going to fully recover it so these are things that we have to say in the future if they uh

address especially as the sport becomes bigger and better on TV

yeah no doubt and you know it's like a lot of other sports you know you might have Summers but eventually you know

you've got to adapt to the times and technology and uh you know frankly what

the fans want right they're the ones you know buying tickets buying jerseys and

whatnot so I think if there's enough of a call for it uh even even an organization that may be resistance to

change will at least uh consider it uh if you will

um gotta talk about it right it's always you know this is this is not just a a

soccer loss but uh a sports and a human loss uh you know the passing of a goat

in in Pele uh while many knew he was sort of in in ill health and and the end

was probably uh kind of you know near you know when it happens obviously uh

reality and finality uh sets in and you know you don't have to be a sign you

know a a soccer fan you know who who he was and and what you know it's funny I

saw someone said you know the Michael someone posted the Michael Jordan of

soccer passed away we lost a goat and someone was I I got a kick out of it

because it's probably true you know someone responded no uh you know the uh

the uh you know Michael Jordan's the Pele a basketball and uh you know he he was uh

just uh uh bigger than the sport uh you know uh you didn't have to be a soccer

fan uh to know who Pele was he was you know a dignitary uh you know met with

presidents and and whatnot just just talking about you know what he meant to the sport and and you know what his loss

you know kind of leaves uh uh that whole uh you know I know we got today's grades

but just speak of the loss uh and what it means to fans in the sports and all

that uh encompasses yeah and I think if you're growing up in the 80s and 90s like we were you know even though Pele

was retired by then but Pele was the type of athlete I put him in the same categories on Muhammad Ali where

you'd have to be a boxing fan to know what Muhammad Ali is it's someone who transcends the sport it becomes a pop

culture figure a global icon and since we we knew Pele was sick for a while but

it never really become something real until they die then you kind of look back on their life

and uh it was very upsetting for me I think also for a lot of Americans

because unlike Messi or Ronaldo or Maradona those athletes don't have a

connection to this country but Pele actually came here played here for two years three years he won the nasl soccer

ball 1977 he retired as a near Cosmos player what I found interesting was just

being on Facebook and social media and hearing people tell stories about actually having met him

because unlike these international sports stars most Americans don't meet

them Pele had a connection to this country he played his entire Club career at Santos which is a Brazilian soccer

team he could have gone to Europe he could have gone anywhere everywhere he never went anywhere he just stayed in his home

country at the World Cup he won three World Cups 1950 81 one is a 17 year old

he has many records he is the original goat and he is and prior to Pele there

were many great soccer players but Pele came of age at a time when television was growing satellite TV was becoming a

thing in the 60s and 70s and communication was improving and so

that gave you the opportunity to become a global icon and then you know in the 90s he was a spokesman for puma and

MasterCard and everyone remembers him and you know he was it wasn't a commercial appellate wasn't in everybody knew Pele if you showed a picture of

Pele to somebody in the street they would they would probably be able to name him um I want to share a story with you with

you um in 2007. I heard that uh Pele was I was a reporter then and at the time in

2007 Pele was making an appearance at the in Times Square now this was not uncommon for Pele to just show up

somewhere and do some kind of promotional thing I remember going there there were a bunch of New York reporters there at the

time um and he gave a press conference and then the press conference was over and everyone all the reports were kind of

like they were kind of a bit upset they weren't able to ask me questions I remember and the the the Press person

came out and said don't worry we're gonna we're gonna put you guys in a room and individually you can interview Pele and this was 2007 when David Beckham had

just announced he was coming to play an MLS so David Beckham was is a huge was a

huge uh name in soccer and the fact that he was coming here back at the time really helped MLS grow

but they were parallels to Beckham's arrival to pele's arrival you know

decades earlier I remember walking into a room and seeing Pele standing there and that Pele must have been a ray at

that point in 70 years old he looked like he was like 40 years old he was fit

you know he unlike other athletes who gained weight after their playing days or whatever he looked like he can suit

up right and I remember walking up to him I said to him oh it's a pleasure to meet you

um you look great and he was like oh thank you so much and he hugged me

and I've met lots of athletes I've you you have as well I chose yeah I

interviewed lots of no one has ever hugged me you know and I remember thinking oh you know I said to him you

know my mother was a teenager growing up in Italy and I said you know 1970 Brazil beat Italy in the World Cup final

and I said you know my mother still talks about how disappointed he was about that he goes oh I'm really sorry

about that and I'm thinking Kelly is not going to apologize for winning the World Cup is he

um but he was so gracious and I remember we asked them questions and we talked

about Beckham coming here and the challenges of playing in America and what it was like when he got here you

know basically how soccer at the time was really just a college game in this country and there was no professional

um I mean the nasl was here but it didn't it didn't have that outlet the fans weren't here and he basically came

as an ambassador and you know in the you know the end of the year when he passed away I thought about that story kind of

over and over again I told my kids about it um you know it it had more meaning for

me now that he's passed away that story it felt like it happened yesterday when I hadn't thought about it in years

um but I think you know when someone dies people tend to say nice things right I think in this case they're true

Kelly was a gentleman yeah it was a humanitarian um a lovely person and it's a shame that

he's not here I remember that night um my daughter and I watched a movie called hot shot that he was in it's a movie

that did not do that well and Pele is in it he was also in the movie Victory

um so if you're interested in seeing how the actor Kelly was in a few movies he also recorded albums I went to YouTube

and listened to a little bit of a singing my daughter and I watched some of his greatest goals and it was kind of bittersweet because

it was the end of 2022 and so when you come to the end of a year you tend to

sort of look back and then having someone pass away and you know and this happens every year I'm sure listeners

can recall every year it seems like the end of the year and Betty White died the year before there's always that kind of

that Rush of people dying at the end we had Barbara Walters who by the way I met as well I worked at ABC News so I worked

with her I met her a few times and we had Pope Benedict die all in the span of a few days and it kind of was yeah for

me it was kind of a way to think back and think oh you know and even I know Barbara Walters is not a not a hobby

person but Barbara Walters died on a Friday night and they had to interrupt 2020 to announce her death and I thought

yeah that isn't fate of some sort that they had interrupted her shell that I grew up watching every Friday with you

Downs um and John we're showing our room here um yeah so Riley's death with the deaths

of these other people at the end kind of made me kind of think of the past and uh but the great thing about Pele is that

all these athletes when they pass away is they live on when we talk about them we watch a video

of them YouTube videos of them and you know I think Pele to some people he's still is the goat you know they don't

care about Messi or Arizona or mbappe they think it's Pele no one's won three

World Cups no one scored over a thousand goals and in a lot of ways maybe he

really is the goat still yeah well said and and that's what I've

heard I've never met him uh like you have but uh people who've met him or know them uh say that uh exactly what

you said like he's down to earth not not an arrogant he's just a normal guy you

know a legendary soccer player but uh just very personable cares about uh

people and I you know again I know you talk about timing and Barbara Walters

passing you know and breaking into 2020. I was watching it too it's it's funny to

hear you say that the thing I thought was like I don't know how much and what

condition he was in uh in the last few weeks but or if he even got to watch any

of the World Cup but I just the first thing I thought of it might be kind of silly or you know I just thought like at

least you know like the World Cup was over and then he he passed away it wasn't like during it or before it

um it almost like he lasted through the got the World Cup in and then uh he

passed on again I'm probably making more of that than than it's really there but that's the first thing

that kind of hit me was like the timing of it it may be more incidental

coincidental but I just thought that was sort of I don't know odd or just kind of you

make a good point because during the World Cup they did say he was very ill and I think

they were trying to prepare the world for it and I remember the Brazilian team was a little bit motivated by this and I

thought oh if he dies during the World Cup the Brazilian team might use that as a rally cry you know um yeah and then he

didn't die during the World Cup which I thought was good and I thought maybe his death during the World Cup would be overshadowed somehow because the games

must go on that kind of thing and then the fact that he put out a statement you know congratulating Messi not that he

not himself his people did it but I think he might have actually enjoyed the World Cup at the end and I know that at

the very very end you know he was basically fighting uh colon cancer and was basically tied up to machines

um but the fact that you know his mother's 100 years old and still alive you know wow it's pretty amazing and the

fact that he had a pretty loving family and he had a huge you know a funeral in Santos where thousands of people showed

up you know people have to understand and I think if you read my book you get you get you get there's a lot of Pele in my book obviously yeah that you you get

that you know in the 1940s and 50s the world was a much bigger place than it is today and you know when we when we

think Brazil we we all know where it is and what Brazilian culture might be like and you know whatever but in 1950s

people didn't know what Brazil was he put Brazil on the map anywhere you go in the world you say Brazil

word association you probably say either Carnival or Pele right yep and so he he

you know I think the power of soccer is such that that anywhere in the world you you meet a Brazilian inevitably you

might bring up Pele you know and so you know it's pretty amazing like I said I

just enjoyed reading all the story you know I had a story that I shared with you now but so many other stories of Pele showing up at various places in the

United States as an ambassador and everywhere he went he had a smile on his face and you know what I think he had

that a lot of people don't have not just athletes humility he was humble and the fact that he made you feel like you were

the most important person mayor it's pretty astonishing and the fact that maybe because he was Brazilian he was

warm I still don't forget I mean why would you hug me why would you embrace me because I think he was

that loving that was his way of going I put my hand out to shake it and he he basically hugged me so you know and that

I don't think anybody will do that again any other famous person in my life will

ever do that and so it's the kind of thing that shows I think the kind of person he was and you know I think there

were two people there was Pele with athlete you know the player and there was Edson his birth name

and I think Edson was just a regular guy and sometimes I think athletes don't

know how to negotiate that and he did and you know maybe at that time when it was a more simple time maybe the 1970s

when the demands of the modern athlete are very different and maybe that's the that's the difference not just

personality but also the demands that the public has on these personalities I mean we live in a world today where

social media athletes post stuff I mean you know pellet and Pelle wasn't posting

stuff on Instagram you know it didn't exist and so I think it's a very different

um relationship we have now with with the athletes in our lives so

yeah no no doubt well said and uh you have a moment you'll you'll remember uh

forever and like you said that's very uncommon uh with athletes especially uh

today's uh athletes the last time uh you were on uh you know Clemente uh I you

know we I we we mentioned like hey let's let's talk about the soccer card hobby

after the World Cup is completed uh we're there you know your thoughts do

you think um obviously there was a lot of build up leading up to the World Cup

uh what do you think you know hobby wise uh is is you know obviously a terrific

final uh arguably the greatest final ever what do you think that does to the soccer card Hobby and kind of leading in

I know it's four years away still uh but here in the states the anticipation of

having that event uh on soil what do you think that bodes for for the hobby part

of of soccer yeah so during the tournament you might have noticed there were some cards that went up and down in

value based on the the performances of players it was a player on the Dutch team named Cody gakpo he scored a couple

of goals he now plays for Liverpool his rookie card is in the Panini prison World Cup set that came out during the

World Cup and I think his will have some value but ultimately the players that achieved the most of the World Cup

already have cards that are valued at a high price so like for messy cards

they're already pretty expensive and so this may be if you want to get his rookie card from 20 years ago The Panini

rookie card I mean you're talking about a a 10 to 20 000 card in a good grade and then you're talking about maybe two

or three thousand dollars in a PSA five or six those prices were were pretty high before and they're not going to get

better I'll give you an example The Panini prism base card from this year's

World Cup set the day after the World Cup final was selling for three hundred dollars on eBay and my first thought was

who's going to tell these people that is about six million of those cards right but because there was you know it's kind of like when someone dies like Pele when

he died I went on eBay and all of a sudden there's all these new listings for Pele cards and they're all going for

hundreds of dollars because and that usually subsides now the the base card

of Messi it's a that's a ten dollar card right it's not a 300 card but people get excited and they want a piece of the

action and they you know never go on eBay the day after somebody wins the

World Cup I'm just a little just just a just a tip but we all get excited we all

want to own it we all get fomo so the thing is I always tell people look wait a month or two and that 300 card will go

back down to 15 or 10 which is what it's worth so in that sense it didn't it didn't

help the market that much because we're talking about expensive cards getting even more expensive so even killing

mbappe whose rookies from four years ago that's a pretty expensive hard braided even just the base uh his rookies put

any prism World Cup 2018 rookie card now forget the parallels those are worth even more

I think because mbappe has another 10 to 12 years in in the as a player I would

call buy his cards I think he's the one to make a play for but I think he can win Another World Cup I think he could

even surpass messy on the list he's only 24 years old

um you know I think soccer has made it in this country because oddly enough PSG Paris Saint German the team that it

Bape and Messi played for they actually played the same club team they gave mbappe a week off

after he came back from the World Cup and he spent that week in New York City and yeah your photos of mbappe walking

around Times Square in New York basically with like a hoodie on with like a mask

for fear of being recognized and you know soccer is made in America when a a French soccer player can't walk

down the street in New York and not get recognized I mean for years and years foreign players would tell me oh I love

playing in America because I can go anywhere and no one knows who I am and now they're Incognito they're wearing

you know get UPS you know the Groucho Marx glasses I don't know what they're doing but they're basically don't want

to be seen I'm a big fan of the buffets because I think he's young he's charismatic and I think if you want to

buy his cards they're still within reason um and I think because the World Cup is

here in four years I think there'll be a bigger ramp up of cards yeah and I can

see even more sets coming out and even more interest the card Market is already becoming a thing in Europe when it

wasn't it's really an American thing Europeans and South Americans love stickers and I will admit to me stickers

they were going now they came out a little earlier in October they were selling I mean I bought a lot of

stickers I love stickers I don't I put them in the book I don't grade them because you know I think stickers are

meant to be put in the book and complete the book and the book is worth something but yeah I had the value that the cards

do and I know even just from being at the national last year there were a lot of soccer cards there more than I

thought and I don't think soccer cards are fad I think they're going to have some longevity like for example Formula

One cards I think that was kind of a fad that may come and go because Formula One

is a different Beast altogether but the World Cup generated so much excitement around some of these players I think

people are going to want to own a piece of that but unfortunately I think the price point is a little high for example

The Panini prism World Cup uh set you know just a box of

an open wax is 500 now the kids are not going to buy that box right that's going to be people like us if we want to buy

it and so you know you start to I think the price is a little too high especially when in this country soccer

is so young people in college and younger into soccer that they're the ones ultimately who want to buy the

cards I think and so there's got to be a way to make cards more soccer cards more

affordable I think for younger people who want a piece of it because otherwise you're you're cutting off the the sport

and the hobby at the youngest point and people like us you can go out and buy the buffet rookie for 300 graded we can

probably do that right no no technical is doing that unless unless I'm wrong and I see those kids at the national

with those boxes walking around with ten thousand dollar cards in them and maybe soccer gets that bump that basketball

got during the pandemic yeah I'd rather see soccer have a steady growth my fear

is that it goes up and down and people are going to think it's a fad and then move on I think it has steady growth and

with the U.S hosting that can only help you know hopefully Virginia America can can take advantage of that somehow I

don't know how they do that but they need to do that somehow yeah great points uh with with the Messe

versus mbappe right not with no no slight to messy but you know he's on the

on the back nine if you will to use a golf analogy right his stuff's already

sort of at the ceiling it they did get a bump obviously uh based on on the World

Cup in the final uh I know especially on his autograph stuff it's funny I I

something just made me look uh before the final at what some of his autograph stuff was at and then after he won it I

went back and sort of Revisited it and it had jumped uh significantly and uh

even even in his regular rookie card like you said but you know like you said you said it perfectly right and Bobby's

got a higher a higher ceiling 10 or 12 more years of competitive uh playing uh

probably at least another world well at least another world cup if not more than than one and so his stuff's not going to

really go down I'm barring anything tragic and injury or or worse or that sort of thing so it's a bit you know if

that's what you do it for that's probably a better a better play card wise and uh I agree to another great

point you made uh Clemente is you you want to see that steady growth rather than the roller coaster the roller

coaster scares people uh literally and figuratively right uh you know in real

time and when it comes to pricing going up and down it just gets a little too

tumultuous and people kind of say stay away and just say you know what I can't figure this thing out so I'm gonna like

exit stage left so I think the steadier growth is what any sport and any hobby

should pick rather than the you know Crescendo and then crash if you will

then arise again I think that that just throws people about and uh some people

you know don't like that yet and they exit States left so I think two great

points there with uh the mbappe and and the you know the steady uh growth rather

than you know uh up and down I think I think you hit it right on on the head

and it's going to be interesting to see right in the next uh four years what the

soccer Hobby and card and sticker Market uh does and uh you know the effects of

of a home World Cup if you will uh on the Hobby and you mentioned uh you know

the the European countries and the other continents are embracing more of the card aspect of the hobby uh over the

trade you know not over but in addition to the the traditional stickers that

they've already uh were fond of so it'll be even interesting not just here in the States but even

overseas to see uh you know with with the sport buildings um uh it's already

you know Argo probably in most many of these countries you know the the greatest sport but uh you know when we

see a great final like we just did uh to see what it even does uh even in markets

they're already strong in it it can get even stronger so it's gonna be an interesting next few years and and you

want to say four years getting into uh the cup here in in North America like you said Canada and Mexico uh as well so

it's going to be going to be an interesting time in in soccer for not just the sport but even the the hobby

side of the sport as well I think the real test will be at the next national

to see how many vendors have soccer whether it's dollar boxes or on the expensive stuff and even the autographs

I you know I think you know we're talking about Pele earlier you know Pali reminds me a little bit of Joe DiMaggio he did a lot of signing like a lot of

signing I mean not like in person I mean like like those stickers Autos that they put on cards and they're still they'll

be Pele autograph cards coming out for years because he signed many many sheets I'm guessing and Diego Maradona the same

way and I think the messy Auto is interesting but you know I think it it's much better value if you were able to

get a messy Auto on a photo or something else I think the the cards even though it might be a one of eight or one of one

even but there's so many Autos out there and I started to wonder if the market for autographed cards are over saturated

and I I sort of wonder about that and while they're even going like someone like in Bape he signed an exclusive deal

with Panini America he came to this country last summer to sign on card because so few soccer players sign on

card so there's some on-car bottles that are worth good money out of a PSG set that came out earlier this year last

year but I wonder if he's going to be the spokesman for Panini America

you know how much will he sign over the next four years and I can see being kind

of the big the Marquee name and all the sponsors and advertisers put their arms around when the World Cup is here uh but

I also wonder if the market gets oversaturated I know we talk about a second junk wax era now you can't talk

about we actually talk about autographed cards but at some point I wonder if you just Google or you go on eBay you type

in mbappe Auto cards and you're getting like 200 listings I'm starting to wonder is there too many of these cards how

rare are they and which one is better than the other and I think when it comes to soccer there's something about the

wild west here a little bit I think the market still hasn't been out long enough

to really create uh sort of a rule you know baseball has been around for decades and so we kind of know which

cards are worth what they're worth and what their rookie card means because of that history that long tail we don't

have that for soccer so I do think like the next national which I hope to be at we can gauge the market better I also

don't know if we're going to go into a recession at some point in the next year or two I'm I'm a little bit curious to

see how the card Market long term does the enthusiasm of the World Cup is definitely there but I just wonder if

People's wallets are in a different place than their heart and mind yes yeah it's a great point you know uh the

discretionary income is today isn't what it was uh two years ago you know you

know you don't need a chart or graph to to realize that all I know John's I'm paying eight

dollars for eggs so it's a good thing I'm not a I like eggs

I don't love eggs so probably a good thing I don't love that because I I you know I can kind of live without them but

yeah it's and and and and other things too right yeah that's just uh it's it's

it's crazy so hopefully hopefully things turn around even in that department that

way uh peoples and my own and yours included discretionary income goes up

and our daughter and our dollar goes farther right obviously we want our dollar to go as far uh as it it can go

it's gonna be I think you summed it right up there too it's gonna be an interesting next two to four years in

life and and in the soccer World and and hobby to see kind of what what happens

uh uh there but uh exciting exciting as well the other thing I want to add too

is that interesting side note is the Women's World Cup is this summer and I wonder if the market for women's sports

or women and soccer cards will also grow with that and with that you know maybe even players like Mia ham from the past

can see values go up because let's not forget the Women's World Cup is is not on par with the men obviously but the US

is actually competitive in that tournament they can act you know they don't work two in a row they're going for a three-peat it's happening down in

Australia and New Zealand I think that tournament will also get Americans excited about soccer soccer and so when

we talk about soccer in this country we have to realize it's like tennis the men and the women are pretty much in the

same sphere and so I don't want to leave the podcast without mentioning the fact that the Women's World Cup is coming and

that maybe there is that will help keep soccer in the conversation and yeah the market and will help

interest and all that stuff at the same time so yeah and thank you for you know uh not

that I forgot well I guess in the sense I forgot but sort of out of sight out of mind and uh thank you for uh getting uh

getting that in there too and that that'll sort of bridge uh you know a year let's say out of the four you know

where uh the it'll be in the Forefront uh as well especially if the U.S women

happen to to win it again and like you said three Pete uh that just has a nice

it has a nice ring to it so uh we'll see if they can uh uh get it done Clemente

as always thank you for for coming on sharing your expertise uh you know

sharing that personal story uh with Pele um uh you know as I always do I give the

guests sort of the final word uh you know plug your book uh website uh

whatever you want to plug uh you take your time thank you um yeah John it's always great being on with you so yeah

you can find me at on Twitter at Clemente Lisi um my book is called the FIFA World Cup

a history of the planet's biggest sporting event you can find that on Amazon and I want to thank John because you had me on early on last summer when

it was still in pre-sale one of the first interviews I did was with you like after that I was interviewed by a bunch

of places including the Washington Post but I'm not going to forget the fact that you had me I'll take all that credit yeah you had me on first so I

appreciate that and also I want to mention the fact that I started up a new soccer website um it's called Planet Soccer uh you can

find that at planetsoccer.substack.com um and there's soccer news on there and

my thoughts on the game and you know even some collectible stuff if I have time so check it out and you can

subscribe for free um and yeah drop me a line I'd love to hear from you if you're into soccer cards or soccer in general

well thanks and uh you know I I don't know a better Advocate or ambassador of

the sport uh I know you you love it it it it comes out of your pores and you

know it and you're passionate about it and uh that's very important I

appreciate you sharing that uh with with uh our listeners so a lot of thanks Clemente thank you

thank you

Ep.215 w/ Clemente Lisi-World Cup Wrap Up & Hobby Impact

Clemente Lisi

Listen On

Featured Episodes

Recent Episodes

New to Sports Card Nation Podcast?

Ep.280 w/ Marc Mader "Rise of Ticket collecting"

Card Mensches E35 Hobby Mount Rushmores w/ Dr.James Beckett

Ep.273 w/ Steven Lane "Greatest Mantle Collection"

Ep.133 w/Sam Shuford from Women of the Hobby

Hobby Quick Hits Ep.70 The Market Crashing?

Ep.115 w/Rob Gough & the Record-Breaking Mantle

Ep.134 w/Jeromy Murray of Beckett

Hobby Quick Hits Ep.76 Live from the NSCC Main Stage w/Brody the Kid