Ep.198 w/ Michael Osacky-Head Appraiser PSA:Protecting Your Collection

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What is up sports card Nation? Episode 198, hope it finds all of you doing well, got a great show today going to get right into it, today's guest on the show. All saki lead appraiser at PSA and Appraisal is what he does. He is very good at it, we're going to learn today, you know, you probably have your own thoughts on what appraising is, what it does what it's used for. You know, unless you've used it or fat it done even in other you know niches it's it has its place especially in the Hobby and Especially what some of our collections or items in our collection are worth and especially hate to say it. But with burglaries and robberies on the increase, not just in LCS has. But even in home break-ins, what he does is of utmost importance and we're going to talk about that. How would she was full? And I had a lot of questions myself that he gave answers for so great. Interesting. 

Precision, when you talk about the market and where it's at and, and some future speculation as well. Michael is very knowledgeable on the sports card Market. He comes from a finance background. He brings a little bit of that to the table as well. Make some better at what he does. It's time to stop the show. Let's go. 

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Excited to talk to my next guest on Esports, card shop. At Moco guess line. He is a certified us Pap appraiser. He's also the lead Appraiser for PSA and I like to welcome mr. Michael saki. Welcome to sports coordination. Thanks John for having me. I look forward to chatting with you today. Wow. And, and likewise in return, you know? I know what you do is very important. You know what you do? Very important, but I think there's some in the hobby that maybe don't understand the, in the role and the importance of appraiser. I get asked all the time from friends or people that know that I've been in the hobby, locked, I met John, you know, what's this worth? And I can give them, you know, a best guest myth, you know, with Compton and all that stuff. But it that, you know, I guess, what's the difference for someone like me who's not professionally trained, you know? Get certified. How do you become a certified appraiser? Yeah. So I am certified and credential through an organization called Isa International Society of appraisers. And they invited me in years and years ago, based on my expertise, my thought leadership and recognition in the field and is a they credential a whole host of different appraisers wine art jewelry. 

A dinosaur bones. You name it and they probably credential different appraisers. Yep. So, I mean, you know, it's easy for some sad. I could tell you what everything is worth, but I mean, you have, like, you said, you certified, your credited and I want to give you a proper credit there and someone will say, well, you know what's, what's the difference? And, you know, when we're talking about things me to be, you know, if you know, I know you'll agree with me too. This with the way some things are valued at now. And sort of the attention on the hobby by the mainstream media. We've seen what comes along with that we've seen, unfortunately, burglaries and Kris and LCS has even even homes being broken into, because of sports cards that are inside. That home, that, you know, people with bad, intentions know that it's there. So, 

Sure having Insurance on your cards to me. Specially of a collection of significant value sort of a no-brainer. But, you know, you, you know, you can take pictures and do all that. But, you know, do to have your stuff for praise and I know you, you, you put letters to your appraisals, especially, if something of major significance. You got to be safe than sorry. Anyone can say, you know, I have a 52 Topps mantle PS I say, three right in the insurance insurance could potentially fight that and say, well, you took a picture, but how do we know you? Maybe you didn't salad or how do we know it's? It's on the premises. And so what you do sort of brings, you know, sort of legitimate list C2, you know, claims people get divorced, right? And those collections get caught in the middle like kids do sometimes in divorces. 

That just even for tax purposes as well. So kind of talk about, you know, how the importance of what you do in some of those situations that I that I just mentioned sure. So generally, there's four reasons or objectives, why somebody would give me a phone call and why they want my services One Insurance to divorce, which you just mention a couple minutes ago and that's actually a big one. The last A couple years, but covid everyone's been staying at home. Talk to each other, spouse 24/7, a day and they just cannot get along. So that's the second one. The third is donation, I do a lot of work with a different Hall of fame's, Someone Like An Athlete or someone has a collection. They want to donate and get the tax write-off and do a lot of that work. And then the fourth reason is Estate Planning, and I will tell you when it comes to insurance companies, they have gotten smaller Years since covid started, pretty cold, but you can just tell your insurance company. I have a fifty thousand dollar collection and they would say, okay no problem, but in 2019, maybe it was worth 50 Grand. But in 2022, maybe that collection is worth 200,000 or 250,000. So, the values have skyrocketed in addition, just like anything in life, you get what you pay for. So maybe you're walking around the national and you see like a Insurance company, and You know, it's pretty cheap, and maybe it's five bucks a month, ten bucks a month, and you get insured. And that's not a problem until there's a claim, that's the issue, right? And so, a lot of times, those cut-rate insurance companies, there's a problem if there's a claim, but if I come in and do an appraisal and I work with all the big insurance carriers, there's never an issue when it comes to a claim because the insurance carriers know who I am, they don't matter. They know my reputation and if I write a letter that says, this is what it was worth the insurance. Company is, is ok, cutting a check on that? Yeah, no doubt. And all important situations, right? Especially, you know, even the tax write off with the, you know, with the IRS, if you want to have, you know, you want to be valid and what you're, you know, you're trying obviously the right out, especially on, on the donation to hear from one of our great sponsors but sports card Nation will be 

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Underscore sports card shop or better yet. Visit us in person to learn about special events party packages. New products in everything we're doing for you the sports card shop, Connecting People Sports and the hobby around the world. Let's go. You are listening to the sports card Nation Podcast. You know how often? You know, if you have pray something, you get it, you ever get a situation, I'm sure you do where someone takes maybe the evaluations to Lo. How do you handle where Maybe the owner of the collection or card or cards? Doesn't agree necessarily with kind of where you value it? Well, most of the time people don't agree with me, whether it's informally or formally people have an inherent bias, 

So what they own, whether it's a baseball card and automobile their house, it's like trying to sell your house. You can list it at a million box, but maybe you get a couple offers a 250,000. Well, that's where the market is just because you've owned the baseball card for 40, 50 years. It doesn't mean that's worth a lot of money. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not but you know, that's why the importance of third-party grading is so special and important really because If a card is graded a for well there's a specific value assigned to that for yes maybe it's not as well centered as other fours or vice versa or meet you know but usually a PSA for for a specific card people know. Okay. This card is five thousand dollars so just because you think it's 100,000 it's impossible. It's not. Yep. What are you doing? This is something I thought about when I knew I was going to talk to you. Michael. Just a question. That way my mind works. I have you Yuko. 

You know let's see what this talk about like one car. Let's let's narrow it down. Whatever card would a man. Oh Jackie Robinson rookie. You give your appraisal and that we saw what the markets kind of done. You know. In the last two years it's kind of settling back down now obviously but what during that Crescendo so someone had it appraised during that time period where you know there was records being set and so 

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You appraise it then. Of, you know, is where it kinda is. Now certain things have settled down, you know, how does that written appraisal work like insurance-wise, can the insurance company said, yeah, you know, that appraisal was done in in 2020 or 2021 the Mart, you know. Now we're in 20, you know the delay end of 2022, we're not disputing the appraisal. As much as just the time it was done. How does that work with West time pass? Sure, that's a great question and pre covid. I usually told my clients a collection, should be reappraised every four or five years, but now it's maybe every two or three years and going back to your question. How does that work? So let's say there's a claim, the insurance carrier will assign an investigator, so the client will submit the documents and show the appraisal that I did, let's say 12 months ago, sometime in 2021. 

The investigator will maybe click around eBay or maybe go to some auction house listings or maybe talk to someone else in his Network or maybe even call me. I'm not sure. And so what will happen is. Wow, Michael did an appraisal this card was damaged or stolen and he appraised at a hundred thousand dollars twelve months ago, but it looks like that card maybe is now 65 or 70 thousand dollars. So the investigator will do his due diligence and it's hot. Sometimes I'll have to get on the horn. Have I got a three-way three-way conference call and kind of let let all the parties know where that card is today, as relates to value. Now, I will say and this is important actually for insurance appraisal. The value is that I use or any other appraiser would use is called its retail replacement. Value our RV, which is very different from doing a donation appraisal where we use fair market, 

Their market value is basically, at auction today. What would that item solve for retail replacement values? A little bit different? Sometimes, the values can be inflated a little bit, because we don't know, at some point in the future, there's going to be a claim, or maybe not. And so, because of that, sometimes the values are a little bit higher than fair market value. So that's also something to consider but retailer place, where values are important, because when the insurance company goes to replace it, Item in 99% of the cases. The insurance company is not going out to the market and going to find that exact card. What they'll do is they'll see what the off with the asking price is usually somewhere and I'll say okay the asking price is 80 thousand dollars, all right we'll just cut, I would just cut a check for eighty thousand dollars and that's usually how that works. Yeah same question maybe I probably should ask this first truth be told, same question, but sorted in Reverse you appraise a card when you were 

Praise it. Let's use let's just use even numbers. It's fifty thousand dollars your appraisal at the time. But you know, 12 months, 18 months later that card is now more valued, you know, hires went up now with 80 or 100 thousand. He, you know, the person has your appraisal of 50, Something, God forbid, something bad happens. It's stolen. And, you know, is it his a going to be a situation where the insurance company is going to say, Hey, listen. You have an appraisal for 50. That's all we can give you or, or will they call you and say, you know what is this value? Now, same thing like the same example, how does that work? When the value goes up from the timing appraisal was originally done? So I'm kind of laughing inside because what happens in that case the client or the owner of item and nearly all the cases knows that the item was going on. And so you can be certain 

He or she will submit all of the supporting documents to the insurance company. So that they know that everybody in the world knows that that item has gone up in value. And here's the proof, obviously, in the reverse, they're not so quick to show supporting documents that the value is going down. Going to take a quick commercial break, but we'll be right back after that, with more with Michael saki, introducing the only Auction House dedicated exclusively to the cards of the night. Teen 90s Josh Adams and John Linden of Korea. The auction company solely for the rare scarce and hard to fight incense and parallels as the 1990s, whether it be basketball, baseball, football, or hockey 90s options will have each option will consist of smaller, Lots between 100 and 120 lat. So your cards won't get lost in the shuffle. Founded on the principles of fairness, honesty, and integrity 90s option was created by collectors for selection register and consigned to Today at 90s options.com. That's 90 little s auctions.com. Forge. Carnation is back with more with Michael. Oh, saki, your background. I mean, you know, you went for finance and stock market. How does that, you know, translate, you know, a lot of people have compared the hobby to the stock market, Michael. You know, some, I agree on some fronts, they have similarities and other times, I can't connect the dots. But, you know, how do you see that that comparison and having that experience? And the financial side. Now bringing that to the Hobby side. It's interesting. And I think important I have always operated on a contrarian point of view and what that means is when everyone's buying I want to sell when everyone's jumping out the window I want to buy and if you follow me on Instagram it's at sports appraisals in the January 31st of last year. So 2021, which was the day after golden auction. So, Sold to Michael Jordan, rookie cards. PSA TENS for 750,000. And within 24 hours, he sold additional to privately. So, in 24 hours, four of them sold for over seven hundred thousand dollars. So the day after I came out of Instagram, this is kind of going back to my finance, the contrarian view, the analytical brain of mine and I said this is a top in the Michael Jordan market then two weeks later. Yeah, this is all posted on my Dock and I got a lot of hate mail. I got some horrible mess. 

Just right around Valentine's Day. I said, this is the top in the overall off, Watch Out Below. And then I had some downside projected projections for the men jcarter of 300 Grand here to say, 200 Grand and so nobody wanted to hear that because including myself, I have a collection, I wanted to keep going up and up and up, but I understand how markets were and I've been involved with stock market since the mid-1990s and just like the stock market this summer. Market. There's Ebbs and flows. And so I correctly. Read? What was going on in our market? And so it. So back to your question, it helps. Because sometimes I do Consulting for some high, net worth individuals or hedge funds and they want to know, we have five ten million dollars to invest, is now a good time to do it and so they rely on me and my expertise to tell them, you know, either save the money or or make money. So it's super interesting. And no doubt you mentioned, you collect, I'll be nosy here, you know, share what you want, kind of what I know your vintage guy like myself, but you know, any more specifics is it certain teams were Kiko. You know, what, where does your general interest go in your personal collection? I'm a big 1914, crackerjack fan collector, Forbes Magazine. I think in 2017 named me the king of crackerjack cards I'm a big 33 Gowdy card set guy, it's a great, set 240 cards, it's littered with Hall of Famers as, you know, for beirut's to Lou Gehrig's. I like to teach to a six set. So I guess I like what other people like as well. But yes, I am a vintage guy. You're right, you're spot-on. I am a vintage guy for a variety of reasons one. That's just how I got started in the Hobby in the 1990s. I also think that there is potentially 

As to risk as relates to the modern Kurds, as I think about Justin Herbert, and Pat Mahomes, and a lot of these guys, and what, if someone gets injured, what if someone gets arrested? What if someone has a lousy season? What if they get traded what? You know, there's a million things that could happen there. But I know that Mickey Mantle Hank, Aaron and Willie, Mays, Willie Mays is not going to be going to jail for a steroid Scandal, right? And so that's why I like the Vintage. So much he had no doubt. It's you know, I act. I second that it's, you know, those careers are in the books, they their records are sealed. Like you said, they're not going to have a bad year, then their know, whether they're going to be in the hall of fame or not. So ready for the most part, in most cases has been determined. Like you said, it's safer. And it quite frankly, I always tell what, you know, on this show. Frankly, it's just a lot less of that stuff as well. It's almost as simple as that. To and you know that's going to lead into another question now. I think I know the answer to this but I got to ask just just you know what your own obviously collection, there's value there you can't appraise your own collection, you have to use, you have to use someone that maybe, you know, but you can't, it's all over like a conflict of interest to say, hey, my cards are worth test this, so for insurance purposes or whatever the case may be, that's correct. Yeah. Because there is a conflict of interest I could say, 

It's worth 100 million bucks and it's not even close to that, you know? And so, but again, going back to my place from earlier. If you know, let's say half of my collection are cards that are PSA grated, you know, the values, they are, pretty much set in stone as far as current prices. We know what a PSA 5 is for a specific card. So I, you know, there's no way anyone can really artificially inflate that value. Yep. For those for someone who maybe has it, You know dealt with getting their cards insured or don't know where to start you know what? Kind of advice can you give them? What what options might they have? My advice is before you call me take a good hard. Look at your collection and really understand what's there and I'm saying that because so many people have large collections from the 80s and 90s that are essentially worthless. And I can't tell you how many times a day people will call me and they're so excited because they have such 

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And when I hear a large collection, it's to me, I get so turned off. Even though the person calling is excited, I'm the opposite. The reason being is because usually if you have such a large collection, it's worthless, it's from the 80s. It's from the 90s. Someone has 200,000 cards from 1987 to 1994. Just donate them right, you know, I because I charge my service and I'm visi, I have a backlog and so, you need to make certain that what you have. Does make sense to have it. Appraised by me or someone else or whatever it is. Additionally. You know, one of the services that I provide, you know, being a partner with PSA is besides appraising, which probably 95% of the collections. I see our raw as I can say, okay, these you have a couple thousand cards. These six should be graded by PSA. You know, because their high value, or for whatever reason. So because card grading can get very expensive, these days, 

We're looking for someone that can correctly. Tell them you know what should be graded? Because pre covid. People were sending in every single car, they own, which contributes nearly 15 million cards and backlog and then they would get the cards back. They'd spend whatever was 10, 12 15 bucks to get the car. Graded and the car comes back as six or seven for modern era, Carter, the cards with a dollar or two and so financially there in the rears and so that's an important service. That I also provide you had no doubt. It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Okay everybody. Have you heard about collectible is the One-Stop shop, where any collector can buy and trade affordable shearson, some of the most rare and valuable sports cards and memorabilia in the world. Starting from just five dollars from 1950 to Mickey Mantle. PSA tens in Wilt Chamberlain's, iconic rookie uniform to one of one Patrick Mahomes rpas rare LeBron James low, bone mass, and 

Thing is between Collectibles, creating never-before-seen access and opportunities for all. Let's go the hobby. We love together. Please note. This is not a recommendation or solicitation to buy any security. All investment decisions should be undertaken after doing your own research. Thanks for sticking with us. Let's return to the show. I got to ask you, like, what what you do? Has it influenced even how you collect as it, have you, every change kind of, or pivoted, anything you've done just from observations or what you've seen or are not necessarily it really hasn't. But it's given me a greater perspective that what I'm collecting, what I'm interested in, has greater Room to Grow Long Term and I just think part of the reason why I haven't purchased Mr. Really collected more than the last couple of years. It's just because it's been, so busy pretty much every single person involved in the hobby, for the past two and a half years, has been working seven days a week, 15 hour days card, shops auction houses grading companies appraisers, like you name it. It's just been, luckily knock on wood, such a huge win. And of course, there's been some MMA companies being acquired so that's been it just been super, super busy. Z. So obviously part of your job to there's a lot of traveling involved, I may have much you know what percentage of the year are you exhort of on the move if you will 150 days out of the year so you're not home you know almost almost half the year, you're not home, correct? Yeah, that's a good idea and I try during the month of December, I try and kind of pack it in, you know, the first week of December and call it a year because the holidays, but 

I'm Always Somewhere in a different city and I love it. I have the best job in the world every day. Seeing a new collection seeing new people learning the stories in the backgrounds behind the collections that too is interesting. A lot of times the stuff that's been passed down from prior Generations, which by the way, some of those stories are great and some of them are great. But, but horrible meeting that I can't tell you, how many times people will tell me this great story that the grant grandfather. We got a signed Babe Ruth. Baseball, I take one. Look at This is fake. They're like, they're like every Christmas I ramp, I would tell us the story. You're 30 of us would gather around in the room for 30. 40, 50 years. I might know it's like this is not baby blue signature and then it kind of like breaks their heart. Unfortunately, most of what I do is Breaking Bad News to people. This autograph is no good. This is a reprint. This is a forgery discouragement Rim. You think this is worth a hundred thousand dollars is worth $5000. But over the years I've gotten better at breaking the news to people. It's just part of what I need to do. Yeah you got to be honest that's what they're that's what they're hiring you to do and do it by not. You're not doing your job but I'm sure seems like you said it's tough. No one wants to hear obviously bad bad news. Someone has you know, an expensive one card. I mean, do you have can, I mean, if they pay for shipping and insurance and do all that do can you 

Praising where if they send it to you and that you know everything's paid for on the you and the user and we will praise like that someone sends you something and then you can send it back or does it all generally have to be done in person? If somebody has one card? That's very valuable and that card has been graded. I can do the appraisal virtually, meaning the person can send me a picture of the front and back and I'll take a look and I can virtually do the appraisal. Still do get praised, the report and there will be a line item in the appraisal report. The called a limiting addition, a limiting condition, excuse me, which is perfectly acceptable, that doesn't affect the value of the appraisal. It's just telling the person, the client and the potential insurance company that I didn't see it in person. I saw it via high-resolution pictures, but that's perfectly okay, but the reason, but the reason why I don't want to do that for 500 cards, 

So much work. It's just much easier if I see it in person with 500 cards. But yes, for one card perfectly acceptable to so many pictures. Yeah, you know, it might be a silly question, but you also need proof that they have it in their possession, right? I was that way, they're not just sending you necessarily pictures of someone else's card. Let's say that they you know, stole it off the internet, but whatever the case may be correct. And some people try and do that. I actually had a couple weeks ago, a guy via Graham trying to do that. It started off a little shady. And as I ask more and more questions, I could tell, I don't know if he was trying to do some sort of insurance scam or what the purpose was, but something was off there. Yeah, I mean, where, you know, any, you know, this from from your financial background, any anyone that can make any money, even on scrupulously, people are going to attempt it. Unfortunately, that's that's the day and age that were in. You know, we mentioned at the top. 

For the the show, you know, about, you know, we're seeing more burglaries and break-ins and LCS, has it even more even some Brazen criminals that are doing it during Store opening hours as well. You know, advice took our stores for those LCS owners that are listening and I mean if you know, can give any sort of advice what would you tell them? I'm actually a praising and entire local card shop. Up next week, here in the state of Illinois. But the advice I would give them is, you should have a lot of cameras, both inside and outside. And also at night before you close up, usually, the card shops will have like a dis one important display case, with all the high-end items, it could be high grade cards or could the unopened boxes, whatever it would be great if you could put them in a safe somewhere at the location because usually, Happens is the people who break in. I didn't very quickly, maybe they're in there for 23 minutes and they sometimes will not go after the safe because it's too hard to get into and so forth. So, for them, they see a bunch of other stuff, they may or may not know some of the some-some of the stuff is targeted. People know what they want but they'll just take. Whatever is available. You know, it's there, it's out in the open. Let's just put in the duffel bag and go. So if you can put everything in the safety, deposit box, or excuse me, Be safe. Be advised. Yeah, I agree. I've said that on a hobby quick hits is my smaller show with. Just me where I tackled topic and, you know, I had a card store myself. Michael way back in the good old days 1992 297, little different hobby. You can't compare. It's almost apples to oranges now, but I get asked every so often John, would you ever open a store again? Probably not. But I always say if I did, I'd have one of those industrial fire Or saves those big, heavy saves. And like you said, it's almost like doing a card show in your store right? At the end of the day, anything of significance and high-end probably should be. I know it would be a pain in the butt, but better it be a pain in the butt then that stuff get taken from you and Rob, you know, put it in that safe. So right on the money, I agree. Because I've said that myself and, you know, I someone in mentioned me 

What about taking it home every night? Won't, you know, you when you were leaving the store with, who knows what kind of value your target, your marked as well. I wouldn't recommend that, I mean, so I think that the safe is that the best bet like you said, a lot of these burglars were seeing Michael, you know, this as well as I do. You know, a good percentage of them. The perpetrators are coming in and kind of scoping it out. For and sort of having mind, if they do it. You know what case they're already going for, like you said, they're they're trying to get in and out in minutes. And so, you know, messing around with a big safe is not part of what they're trying to do. And yeah you want and let me add one thing. Yep. I was talking to a local card shop owner about this very issue. And what he's done is he actually has two big safes. 

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Night. The other one is completely empty, so he does is he kind of hides the first one which is completely empty. Hoping the robbers will find that one. They'll spend 23 5 minutes trying to break in and when they do it's empty and when they see it's empty they'll run out because you're so pissed off. But yeah, that he hides really good. The second state that has all the good stuff because the chances of them, you know, find the second safe or looking for the second safe after not finding stuff in the first. Safe is probably Probably slim to none. Yeah, decoy save. I've never heard that. That's pretty interesting. And, you know, every little, every little wrinkle right, can can help it and I mean, you know, one safe is great, two safes with the throw, maybe someone off and cost, you know, perpetrators more time. A lot of what they do is based on time. They don't want to be there. You know, most of these stores now having in minimum and alarm system, good ones, where they go to the local. 

He said and then they, you know, will send their, you know, police officers to the scene. So they want to get you like you said, they want to get in and out. So the more stuff that can delay or throw a monkey wrench into what they're trying to accomplish the better off. You know, you could be with you or listening to the sports card Nation Podcast. We'll be right back after this break. Are you a new sports car to like there or someone returning to the Hobby. Maybe you're just looking for a friendly trustworthy hobby Community, to hang out with and enjoy collector. Midwest, boxford's has been bringing collectors together for many years with a portable break, helpful thread and a Discord group packed with generous, people who genuinely care about the Hobby and other collections. Check out the brakes at Midwest box. Breaks.com, our goal is to bring you as much value as possible. Also find us on Twitter at Midwest Boxford. Hey folks. Jan here just wanted to remind you used to 

Discount code M. Bb10 for 10% off. Your first order at Midwest box. Breaks.com Let's go. You are listening to the sports card Nation Podcast. See you in a lot of new, you know, shatterproof glass, where the the integrity's in fact impacted, but you can't punch it necessarily a hole through it. Where someone can step in or go through it, I know there was a little tempted robbery, attempted robbery recently in Dallas where that glass actually thwarted, anything being taken, you had to replace the glass, but it's a lot easier and probably better to replace a pain or she Glass then, you know, hundreds of thousands potentially millions of dollars worth of inventory. And so, you know, we're just seeing more of this which makes what you do all the more important in what you know shop owners do on their end very critical as well. So I definitely wanted to get you know I knew this is something you'd have a great answer for and you did you know, Getting into the modern stuff care. Coming down the home. Stretch. I know, your vintage guy. I am. I do do some of the new stuff myself. We see what's going on with the Fanatics hobby, take over, you know, kind of putting your financial lots of experience that you have. I mean, what do you think of the? Are you concerned? I'll speak for myself. It's a little concerning to me. 

I think anytime you have sort of one company control that much of the market, I think that can be sort of dangerous or risky if you will. So I get asked all the time. Michael what, what do I think? And it's concerning but, you know, you have a lot more experience when it comes to financial stuff. I just wanted to get your sort of, you know everything obviously speculation, but sort of your thoughts on maybe where the current Hobbies going. Yeah. So, I do agree that monopolies or oligopolies are never to usual, but I do believe in Michael Rubin and his management team there super brilliant, super smart people. And, you know, Michael got started decades ago collecting cards. He also owned a ski shop, but he's a really, really smart individual and he's obviously doing this to, you know, grow The Hobby and make money. He's cheap, I grow the pie and I think what we're going to see 

Maybe the next two or three years. Watching the Super Bowl, or maybe Sunday Night Baseball, you're going to start seeing Fanatics commercials. Don't forget the Fanatics, 2025 baseball cards, come out tomorrow, or whatever it is. And so more people on a regular basis are going to be learning and finding out about the Hobby and buying more packs of cards, and that's a good thing. Long-term sure that's probably going to be some hiccups on the way, but I do believe in him and his team to, you know, do Oh good. Even though, yes, they are buying up a lot of companies. They fought a top safe and they're going to keep buying companies because that's kind of how they grow. They grow not necessarily organically, but in organically by buying companies. Yeah. And and it was no one, no one. I think legitimately can argue that. Michael. Ruhlman isn't an intelligent smart guy. Take the track record speaks for itself, I guess, just from a hobbyist perspective, I'm worried. You know, when you spend a lot 

A money buying a lot of these companies. The licensing that they've also acquired 20-year deals. It's speculated to be you know I just worry about. We talk about one of the the Alors and attraction of vintage cards is that just not that many of them, right? There's a finite amount. I guess I'm just worried about like presses that sort of never stop. Not that it's about always just about dollars and cents it is and we can collect what you enjoy and A passion not worried about necessarily what it's worth. But I mean most people at the end of the day 95% of people sort of want to cards would be worth as much as they could tap possibly potentially can be. So I worry about for that aspect, I were just about maybe the production of where we're headed there again, I don't have any information other than speculation and but sort of you know that sort of thing. Yeah. So that for me is a non-issue i 

Saying the companies have learned a lot since, you know, the junk quack, Sarah 87 to 90 for and I think everyone realizes now that, you know, we can never ever again, go back to doing that because that just kills profit skills, the hobby it attracts people. And so that was a big big learning point back then. Well I hope they're out there thinking the same and I hope they're dip, they're not hope to eat here yet or me or whatever else and and Take it, you know, take a little advice there and heed that advice I guess time will tell right. We just got to see what happens each day. It's been a crazy new cycle and hobby, unlike past years, and it's fun and for not having fun, you know, I don't know what you're doing, but I want to thank you for giving some time, great advice and, you know, talking about what you do, I don't think people necessarily understand it. The importance of it. So, with that being said, Michael give out, you know, your website where people can can reach you, if they, if they need your services and all that good stuff. Take your time. Sure. They can find me on my website baseball in the Attic.com like an email me. Michael at baseball in the attic.com and Instagram. It's at sports appraisals and Twitter at baseball addict and on Facebook at baseball. So hopefully you can find me in one of those places or send me an e-mail. I'm happy to help one one last question to I meant to ask you this earlier too Annie, you're at the Nashville for the most part, every year I've seen you, do you do anything in person at the national as far as a praising or is it difficult? So, I have a booth there. It's sometimes I do do appraisals there but very rarely. It's more for networking. Seeing Old Friends meeting new people lead generation connecting with PSA. It's just kind of difficult to do an appraisal are just so busy. Young people are always stopping by and saying hi and, and also some people want privacy. They don't want to, you know, bring a collection into a room with tens of thousands of people and just put it on a table for everyone to see. Yeah, no doubt that's what I thought but I To ask you about. Well again Michael, thank you for your time and the service, you provide. And you heard Michael give out where you can find them and get in contact to get your needs taken care of thanks. Again, thanks John for having me right there. You have it from the man himself, Michael. Oh saki, he knows what he's talking about. So again, if you have some expensive cards collection, And whether At home or in a store setting, right? Appraisal something. You should think about gave you some tips to about, you know, first time I've ever heard about a decoy safe, but not a bad idea after hearing about it. So a lot of great information there you can take something from a appreciate them coming on when to take a quick break and I'm going to come back with some closing thoughts. Iron sports cards is your number one source for all your PSA and other grading submissions, their Elite status improves turnaround time. Heck they even provide the card Savers, thei